What caught my eye this week.
Charlie Munger used to say that to be really sure of our convictions, we must be able to argue the opposite side.
If you agree and you’re a fan of early retirement, then get yourself a glass of whiskey and/or a couple of Ibuprofen and buckle up to digest the anti-FIRE message loud and clear.
Because this week Jared Dillian of the punchily-named We’re Gonna Get Those Bastards blog took on The FIRE Movement:
Joe graduates from college and gets a job in the cube farm for $80,000 a year. He gets the cheapest apartment possible, rides a bike instead of driving, and eats ramen noodles.
He does this for ten years, saving up to 70% of his income, and investing it in low-cost index funds. At the end of ten years, he has a million or so saved up, more if he is lucky. At that point, he retires to play the guitar or paint happy little trees, and gradually draws down his savings over time.
If the stock market keeps going up as planned, he can stay retired for 50 more years, and get really good at guitar.
This the fucking stupidest thing I have ever heard of in my life.
I enjoyed the post, but then I often link to Dillian’s writing. He swears a lot and takes no prisoners – but hey, it worked for Quentin Tarantino.
Also, I don’t consider feisty articles uploaded into the void as a personal attack, which helps.
But of course there’s a lot that’s wrong in Dillian’s FIRE1 summary.
Nobody serious in ‘the movement’ uses a 12% expected return to underwrite their financial futures, as he claims.
Indeed, when outside-the-movement pundit Dave Ramsey suggested something similar recently, FIRE elders took him to pieces. As for The Accumulator, he is downright parsimonious.
More subjectively, Dillian’s take on whether and why people would pursue a FIRE-forward lifestyle is hyperbolic, and his love of consumption culture seems archaic to me.
That’s okay. We all think differently, and our views evolve too.
Monevator began life as a blog championing early retirement, but I don’t actually believe it’s a good idea for most anymore. We debated the pros and cons a while ago.
However I do love and cherish financial independence. And for me that wouldn’t have been possible if I’d lived life the way Dillian describes.
Know your enemies
It’s good to be challenged, so have a read of the whole article. He makes a couple of fair points as he sprays his gun around. Even if he’s targeting some of the least objectionable people you can imagine.
Where do I agree with him?
Well, I do think someone should probably change jobs if they’re that unhappy, rather than slogging it out for two decades on the prospect of a grand escape.
I also doubt whether most deeply unhappy people will be made happier by having more time to sit around thinking about it. There’s probably something else going on.
Finally, I don’t believe a 50-year long retirement – as in never working for money again – is optimal. In my observation though few truly early FIRE-ees actually end up never working again anyway.
You may think differently. Jared Dillian does. And again, that’s all fine.
One huge virtue of the FIRE concept is it’s not trying to change anybody else’s world. Your politics might have made our country poorer and my holidays more of a hassle. But your savings rate is your own affair. It hurts me not a jot.
Where some see solipsism in FIRE, I see humility and the serenity prayer.
I guess that sounds boring and worthy, and not half as much fun as swearing. Dillian’s post is more entertaining. No doubt it boosted his website traffic.
But you know what else is entertaining?
Being free to do whatever you want to with your weekdays before you’re 50. And not having to care what anybody else – boss, random blogger, or brother-in-law – thinks about it.
Have a great weekend!
From Monevator
The quixotic quest to live off a natural yield from ETFs and other passive funds – Monevator [Members]
How to make one million pounds – Monevator
From the archive-ator: Reasons to rent a house instead of buying – Monevator
News
Note: Some links are Google search results – in PC/desktop view click through to read the article. Try privacy/incognito mode to avoid cookies. Consider subscribing to sites you visit a lot.
Interest rate cuts still expected, despite UK inflation uptick – BBC
Record 50,004 limited buy-to-let companies set up in 2023 – This Is Money
London property price falls in 2023, by borough – Evening Standard
Home Office U-turns on rights of EU citizens in UK before Brexit – Guardian
Blackrock beats spot Bitcoin ETF rivals in race to $1bn in assets – Blockworks
‘Manipulative’ dating app fraudster jailed – BBC
Why is it still so hard to build new homes in England? [Search result] – FT
Products and services
Seven tips to get a UK train ticket as cheaply as possible – This Is Money
How to plan and pay for your funeral in the UK – Guardian
Get between £100 and £1,500 cashback when you open an ISA with Interactive Investor before 31 Jan. New customers only. Minimum £2,000 deposit. Terms apply. Capital at risk – Interactive Investor
Six things you need to know before using equity release – Which
Is HelloFresh good value for money? – Be Clever With Your Cash
Electric cars will get cheaper in 2024 thanks to an imminent price war – This Is Money
Open an account with low-cost platform InvestEngine via our link and get up to £50 when you invest at least £100 (T&Cs apply. Capital at risk) – InvestEngine
LNER scraps off-peak rail tickets between London and Edinburgh – Guardian
Homes for commuters, in pictures – Guardian
Comment and opinion
Divert national insurance cut bonus to a pension, experts say – Guardian
How to avoid becoming miserably rich – A Teachable Moment
Will ditching coffee make you a millionaire? – Morningstar
Despite everything, UK house prices rose in 2024 [Podcast] – The Property Podcast
Should you put all your investment eggs in one basket? [Search result] – FT
Bad luck Beans – Money With Katie
What do the rich really think about a wealth tax? – Guardian
The noisiness of financial factors [Search result, nerdy] – FT
Advice for landlords – Humble Dollar
Five simple investing ideas – Darius Foroux
What makes a good prophecy? [A few weeks old] – Tim Harford
[US] stocks versus bonds mini-special
The Holy Grail of portfolio diversification – A Wealth of Common Sense
Stocks have not always beaten bonds. Should you care? – Morningstar
Historical returns for US stocks, bonds, and cash – A Wealth of Common Sense
Naughty corner: Active antics
FTSE 100 valuation and forecast – UK Dividend Stocks
Investors to avoid – Investment Talk
There’s a record $6 trillion sitting in US money market funds – Apollo
Using a negative checklist to reduce investing errors – Novel Investor
The S&P 500 looks as expensive as ever… – Apollo
…but US small caps are historically cheap – Institutional Investor
Kindle book bargains
What They Don’t Teach You About Money by Claer Barrett – £1.99 on Kindle
Kleptopia: How Dirty Money is Conquering the World by Tom Burgis – £0.99 on Kindle
Fooled by Randomness by Nassim Taleb – £1.99 on Kindle
Make Your Bed by William McRaven – £0.99 on Kindle
Environmental factors
Why nuclear energy is the best energy- Uncharted Territories
Brexit divergence from UK destroying UK’s vital environmental protections – Guardian
Turn wasted wind energy into green hydrogen to save UK billions, study says – Recharge
The fight against blast fishing in Tanzania – Hakai
Climate change warning over Scottish forestry cuts – BBC
UK water industry’s ‘urgent’ plan to tackle sewage delayed by four months – Guardian
Return to the office latest mini-special
Don’t sleep with your boss – Dror Poleg
UK judge rules against FCA manager who wanted to work from home [Search result] – FT
60 Minutes on US commercial real estate – The Big Picture
Robot overlord roundup
A.I. heralds the next generation of financial scams [Search result] – FT
Is A.I. the death of I.P.? – The New Yorker
Off our beat
The tyranny of the algorithm: why every coffee shop looks the same – Guardian
Information that would get your attention – Morgan Housel
Is it any wonder Gen Z struggles with job interviews? – Guardian
Wine was my poison. Now it’s my sober passion [Search result] – FT
When one twin goes vegan and the other doesn’t – Vox
The labour of inspiration – More To That
And finally…
“Quite possibly there’s nothing as fine as a big freight train starting across country in early summer, Hardesty thought. That’s when you learn that the tragedy of plants is that they have roots.”
– A New York Winter’s Tale, Mark Helprin
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- Financial Independence Retire Early. [↩]
Thanks for all the links.
Loved the Jared Dillian post. I’ve always seen financial independence and retirement as two separate things that may be why it made me smile so much.
I enjoyed Jared’s post, while thinking he’s the Calvinist Do What You Love, Love What You Do calvinist punk that used to piss me off while working.
Millennials do seem to have tough time with work, I really can’t say that I hated work when I was in my 20s and 30s. Indeed, I recognised some of his sentiments. For me, though, Carl Jung had it taped –
Which is the essential difference, what the RE part changes. Someone approached me on Linkedin regarding some work I had posted on instrumentation of a physical constant, he wanted to to use it for scan mining cores. I thought about it for a while, it was interesting, I had domain knowledge, and had mucked around with the sensor design as a maker (=hobbyist).
Then I thought about the commitments and the claim on my time and all that, and thought, nah, bollocks to that. I don’t need the money, and would only invest it anyway, and I have used more than half the hours statistically allocated me on Earth. Using more of them to go to work to earn money I don’t need is a misallocation of time capital. So good luck to Jared. He’ll probably grow out of it.
> I am not a big fan of unstructured free time.
He clearly lacks an internal locus of control. Developing that is part of the individuation process and the mark of a life well lived IMO. But if you don’t have that and it doesn’t develop, sure, don’t ever stop working. In retirees you observe this as people who yammer about what their grandchildren are doing ,rather than what they are doing 😉
I absolutely get his thing that once you step off the hamster wheel, though, you are done. If you’re earning enough to realistically think about FIRE, you are probably good at something. Don’t make the assumption you can just quit and then pick up where you left off a year, five years, ten years later.
There’s something to be said for his point
looking back I spent a little bit too much time on that. Nowhere near the amount of time I would have spent working, mind you. But I do recognise it as an issue and part of the price you pay for FI/RE, particularly if you are trying to telescope the period of accumulation, either as his Joe Millennial or as an old git that should have perhaps seen the end coming sooner…
I earned a higher hourly rate occasionally after retiring. But it never added up to much, because that was all one-off hit and run jobs. You can often easily make a higher hourly rate if you have the specific skills for a job, but staying power also matters, and I never had that after leaving work, because: life is short
I’ve sifted through Jared’s post and, unsurprisingly, very little of it chimes with me.
I do love unstructured free time.
I do spend my FIRE’d years on the beach, hiking etc and mostly don’t even have a TV available to watch.
I do watch the stock market, but I have a low SWR (circa 2.5%)
I have never seen anyone in FIRE circles banking on 12% returns, and they’re roundly disabused of that notion if they try.
I did dislike my job, admittedly, but I’m not now unhappy.
I somehow resist wandering into shops to buy fancy new jackets, this provides me no satisfaction whatsoever.
However, I do believe that an easier and better path, if possible, is to love your job or be able to change to one where you do. A luxury not everyone is granted. I think it takes an unusual sort of person (and mostly 2 like-minded people) to FIRE early and make it work. Also, unless you have a whopping inheritance to start you off or a top 1% job, retiring really early is incredibly difficult if you want kids and/or are rooted to the SE of the UK.
Finally, the other point is that it’s not a binary state. There are many very worthwhile stages along the way – having enough to weather a crisis, having enough to quit a bad work situation, having enough to move to part time or take a break, having enough to pursue a low-paid passion etc etc. If you cast a gander over on r/FIREUK you’ll find many people, probably even a majority, who are more interested in the virtues of being FI than actually retiring early.
Unrelated to the above – I’ve seen several tempting entreaties to investing in the UK in general and US small caps in particular recently because of how good value they appear compared to the S&P 500. From sources I trust too.
Still, I really hesitate to overweight. I still hold a bit of an extra allocation to the ‘great value’ emerging market scene from an enthusiasm some years ago, which has to put it mildly not worked well, and continues not to. I’d have been better off in cash I think. Every time I diverge from a global tracker, I tend to be punished.
That’s my experience. I’m just not convinced anymore that great value in the stockmarket is what it seems. Would love to be convinced though.
Nice bunch of links, thanks.
The latest Morningstar review of Edward McQuarrie’s: “Stocks for the Long Run? Sometimes Yes, Sometimes No” is IMO a good balanced review – that concludes with a notably pithy retort from Ed to some criticism of his paper.
I’ve been reading the WGGTB blog for a few months following references to it here. The recent FIRE post made me roll my eyes though. FIRE people stopping work to waste their time doing passion work – didn’t Jared used to be in finance and now writes books (and magically has one coming out in a few days, in fact). Is there inconsistency there? A recent blog post was “haters are idiots, I don’t hate” and the next blog post is “I hate FIRE people”. OK
, you have layers, but seems incongruous.
Takes all sorts but I’ll stick to Monevator, ermine and Weenie as my regular reading.
Not a fan of MMM, so I thought the post was entertaining. Some of it is wrong and it’s rather hyperbolic but that’s his style.
The bit that most chimes with my view is the idea that FIRE is inconsistent. I cannot square FIRE’s environmental, low consumption mantra with their return assumptions from equity investing that will require continuous consumption-based economic growth. I really wonder whether FIRE is even consistent with capitalism.
I also agree with him that, at least in the UK, lean-FIRE advocates are often free-loading on the state with free medical care, free education etc. How much tax has a couple who retire at 40-50, with a pot of £1m actually paid in vs. the likelihood they will both live for another 35-40 years and may have children? It’s one thing for me to pay tax to support things like defence or creating a safety net for those who cannot work. It’s quite another to pay tax to allow a middle-class, university educated person, who is perfectly capable of doing a well-paid job to spend the rest of their life doing squat just because they don’t like their job.
Well, I read the post and thought he came out as a bit of an arse. One to be avoided.
@ZXSpectrum, you raise some good points.
Can only speak for myself, but I’d say that I’m fully aware that my investing success for FIRE is dependent on others consuming. They choose to consume, I choose to be at leisure. It’s a niche option, and probably necessarily so, but I don’t see any incompatability there. I’d say capitalism is absolutely essential to it.
Re: the environment, whilst perhaps it’s roots are there, I’d say very few are focused on that element of it from my experience (can count the number of posts I’ve seen on that over on reddit over many years on one hand).
In fact, I would say even just the low consumption element is increasingly rare these days. Most it seems would rather not constrain their lifestyle and instead (somehow) accrue a gigantic pot to support their spending. So I think capitalism has nothing to fear from FIRE.
Re: state support, well, FIRE earners tend to be very high earners, so they’ve probably paid quite a huge amount of income tax already relative to the median income and are unlikely to have claimed any social security benefits. They also will continue to pay all sorts of other consumption taxes, as well as council tax etc.
What I would say on that front is that, despite the fact that it wouldn’t be good for me personally, this country is too soft on taxing wealth compared to many others in my opinion. That in my view should be what changes to ensure everyone pays their fair share.
I agree with ermine and far_wide on the Jared Dillian article. It is more provocative clickbait than a serious look at the pros and cons of FIRE. I can’t think of anything better than unstructured free time! Bring it on! A lot of people who insist that they find fulfillment through work often strike me as lost souls who need to find meaning through submission to other people’s passions and projects since they have none of their own.
If I was going to take issue with FIRE it would be to point out what I think is the most obvious downside – sacrificing the present for the future. That is prudent in moderation but like anything if taken to extremes is unwise. Too much frugality in the here and now risks missing opportunities that will never come round again. You are only young once. There is no guarantee that something available now will be in the future. The world changes all the time and if you like something as it is now you need to grab it before it disappears. It is also much more likely that most things will become less affordable over time for your average western FIRE devotee than more affordable. Balance in all things.
That was the first time I’d read Jared Dillian earlier this week when Finumus tweeted about said article. I quite like the way he seems to be trying to trigger as wide a range of people as possible. Initially I thought he’d made a mistake about Liberals watching Fox News, but now I’m thinking that is probably a subtle trigger.
I don’t feel like I sacrificed anything to achieve FIRE, although my spendthrift parents (now running out of retirement funds) did mock me for being “frugal” in their eyes. Now that I have enough but am only 45 with 2 young kids, I spend money a lot more freely. FI lets you do that, it’s very flexible. I don’t think I could stand the stress of having a young family but also living hand to mouth, with no option but to grind away to 68.
Re “I don’t actually believe it’s a good idea for most ” – it’s not a religion, you don’t get to choose whether to believe or not. Is there evidence to show that people who make an active, positive, choice to leave the workplace earlier (than a randomly set ‘retirement’ age) suffer greater negative consequences than those who continue working?
And if it’s not good to retire early, is it good to retire ever? You believe most people should work until they die?
Further, you’re looking at it from the wrong starting point. Who said it’s “deeply unhappy” people who pursue early retirement? I was perfectly content before leaving paid employment, but realised that exchanging my time for money that I didn’t need was not the most satisfying way to live.
The Jared Dillian article is just a series of straw man arguments probably designed to get a reaction rather than to actually contribute to the debate.
But trying to wade through the fluff I think what he’s saying is try and find a job you love, which is fine I guess but it’s not exactly a new idea and it’s not really an option for everyone. Indeed writers themselves are famously low earners on average, with only the top writers making a decent income.
Probably the most revealing part of the article is the last line “P.S. If you like these thoughts on personal finance, there is a whole book full of them coming out in 11 days. Get it here…”
A very interesting post and some very interesting and enlightened comments; such an entertaining debate! Whilst flawed and contradictory in some areas, there are some insightful observations. One thing that strikes me is that despite protestations, JD is in many ways a fully signed up member of the club. Having achieved FI, he has changed tack to pursue his dream – albeit from the perspective of the workaholic without an off-button. Dreams come in all shapes and sizes!
Thanks for the great comments everyone!
@Scott — You write:
Yes I do, it’s called having an opinion. This is mine.
Not me. I said for those who *are* deeply unhappy, retiring isn’t likely to make them happy. I have encountered several people in this position in real-life, and dozens over the years on the Internet.
I think it becomes a better idea as you age out, for sure. But I’m very comfortable with suspecting that many people might have happier lives if they’re able to put in a day or two even into their 70s.
Many (most?) high-profile successful people live this way. If they can do it with abundant options, why shouldn’t the rest of us consider it? 🙂
Anyone can read the debate linked to in the article for more of my thoughts on this. Don’t want to clog up the thread!
Bertrand Russell wrote in Praise Of Idleness in 1932 that “The time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time.”
I’ve heard of Bertrand Russell and I’m scarcely educated.
I doubt some future equivalent of me in 2124 will have heard of Jared Dillon and his blog.
@ermine – ‘Millennials do seem to have tough time with work, I really can’t say that I hated work when I was in my 20s and 30s.’
The world of work has definitely got a lot shitter and that’s a massive part of the problem with jobs, and prob a good contributor to the millennial malaise. Things like putting scientists/engineers in environments that resemble call centres and expecting them to be able to work. When I started we all had our own desks, some even had their own offices, now no-one does. Home-working and smartphones have been pretty devastating in completely eroding work/home boundaries. Virtual meetings al-desco means a ton of noise pollution in any given open plan office. All these things have come about in the name of efficiency and productivity but they are on the whole pretty inhumane. You wonder what will be dreamt up next to make the situation even worse, I guarantee something will..
@ZXSpectrum
“I really wonder whether FIRE is even consistent with capitalism.”
People doing FIRE are effectively wannabe rentiers living off assets. Indeed the full term is often called rentier capitalism so its fine.
During capitalisms history there were always a wealthy top strata who didn’t need to work, go watch The Gilded Age on Netflix
The current kerfuffle about FIRE seems to mainly be about rentier capitalism being too available to the plebs.
If that’s really the issue then the solution is raise taxes and close loopholes.
And I’m sure that would make this site’s readership blood boil …
@Rhino
“You wonder what will be dreamt up next to make the situation even worse, I guarantee something will.”
Your Microsoft AI Assistant would like a chat.
@neverland – good shout, that would do it. I do wonder if there will be a point in time where people decide to make work environments better? In the meantime, only adds to the case for financial independence.
Can I trot out the spiderman line of ‘with great power comes great responsibility’, which I see as the real danger of financial independence. Once you’re there you’re stripped of excuses and that can be very, very difficult to deal with. Not everyone needs their character scrutinised in such a way. Ermine’s ‘internal locus of control’ may prove to be deficient?
> Ermine’s ‘internal locus of control’ may prove to be deficient?
Well, never say never, but I’ve battle tested it for 12 years now and it ain’t failed in service yet. Sure, some things have changed, some things I thought I would do more of I didn’t, but so far je ne regrette rien 😉
Now if it’s important to you to put your ding in the universe, then for god’s sake don’t retire early. Each to their own. Once more Carl Jung has an apposite* bon mot
“Jung believed that the only way to individuation is to stop projecting our unconscious reality ‘outside.’”
Individuation is by no means mandatory, at midlife there is a switch-point, where you can continue to play by the extraverted rules of Western society, where you are valued by what you have or you do, to a first approximation an external locus of control. There was a book in the 1970s by Erich Fromm called to have or to be, which spelled that out in the either-or.
Some people choose to run from the task of knowing thyself, they stick with what they do and not what they become/are. If it works for them, great. Parents can say ‘Look upon my Works’ and that’s a perfectly good way of finding meaning, although the greatest burden some children carry is the unlived life of their parents so kindness should make people ask themselves the question and accept different aspirations of their offspring 😉
There’s not enough attention is the FI/RE space given to the question is it right for you, what do you want from life. There’s a lot about the how, but you have to start at the beginning. It’s a perfectly good answer that for some people that FI/RE is not for you, because while you could do it, it would hack you off. It’s puzzling there’s such angst in the work-for ever crew. If you have made your FI and don’t need it, there are no end of problems in the world that could use a bit of cash, or rent a helicopter and fly it over Trafalgar Square and shovel banknotes out the side just for the lulz. FI != RE in all cases, so what.
* I do take the point of the cited source grousing that too many people take short snippets, mea culpa
JD’s remarks about unstructured leisure time strike a chord with me; I can be guilty of wasting an entire day being busy doing nothing, always during winter.
But I’m knocking on a bit and hate the cold weather. Having been retired for over 20 years I figure I’m allowed the odd day of leisure.
FIRE is a new concept for me, I only ever aimed for the FI part.
At a young age, I came to realise that financial independence brings freedom.
And that was always my aim.
In my opinion, the JD article was not particularly well written, largely attacking some extremist straw man opponents.
That said, I think he did have some reasonable points:
1) I do think retiring early with too aggressive a withdrawal rate (4% significantly too aggressive in my opinion) has pretty good odds of resulting in stress and unhappiness, even in the cases where it doesn’t result in outright failure. I’d personally be far more conservative.
2) I do also think that his argument (that @ZXSpectrum48k emphasizes) that FIRE is self-inconsistent due to reliance on economic growth is sound, and that to some extent FIRE’ing is freeloading. It seems self-evident to me that the system would fail if everybody pursued it. But then again, having other people do work to generate your income is sort of the whole point of capitalism.
3) I also think that hating work is not a good place to be, and if you’re in that position, you should be actively working to address it in the near term.
But I think he also misses the mark on some points:
1) Unstructured free time is what you make of it. Good for some, probably not for others, and that’s OK.
2) Satisfaction from materialism is much more nuanced than he makes it out to be. Many purchases I make bring only fleeting satisfaction, and eventually result in higher stress due to having more things I have to think about, deal with or dispose of. However, some bring truly durable satisfaction (e.g., my espresso equipment and exercise equipment). The art is in getting good at figuring out which is which. Also, he paints a very extreme picture of FIRE. Lots of folks walking the path have no problem buying stuff, but just do so responsibly.
3) His point about expected returns is just bogus.
4) His point about FIRE followers hating work is also just bogus. Some FIRE adherents hate work, plenty don’t. I count myself in the latter bucket. But equally, I’d wager that plenty of folks not aspiring to FIRE hate work too. There’s also a broad spectrum between hating work, and loving work so much that you hate the weekend.
All that said, to my mind, it makes a lot of sense to pursue some degree of financial independence (to what extent and how aggressively is debatable). Achieving this significantly increases quality of life, and in my experience has the effect of making work more enjoyable and flexible. However, whether to retire early is a far more nuanced question, and I think should be weighed very carefully.
Finally, @ZXSpectrum48k’s:
“I also agree with him that, at least in the UK, lean-FIRE advocates are often free-loading on the state with free medical care, free education etc. How much tax has a couple who retire at 40-50, with a pot of £1m actually paid in vs. the likelihood they will both live for another 35-40 years and may have children? ”
Although I agree with you on the freeloading example here, I could pose a contrarian point of view with respect to having children. I actually think that *not* having children is another more subtle form of freeloading. Sure, kids carry an economic burden, but on average they also generate significantly more economic output over their lives than it takes to raise them, and we sort of need them if we want workable society in our old age. People who raise kids pay for this in monetary and non-monetary ways (time, energy, …), with the latter being significant. I’m all for personal choice, but think we should recognize that folks who don’t raise kids reap many of the benefits while carrying little of the overall cost (yes, I get that some of their tax money is used).
JD’s article was a perfect example of how enragement is engagement: it felt like he was being deliberately obtuse to make as many people angry as he could. It’s definitely worked! He deliberately mischaracterized people to get attention – and get attention he did. I definitely laughed out loud at his comments of FIRE people then writing a book about their experiences…as he shilled his book about his experiences.
Bravo A+++ for free marketing.
I don’t hate work, but I’ve had a taste of what ageism is like at 45 in my industry and I don’t think it’ll be any more palatable at 55 let alone 65.
@Post Morbus Yes I would agree that he’s deliberately riled up the MMM / Monevator commentariat here by pandering to some of the misconceptions of FIRE while being a paid up member of the RE club. Clumsily done, but you can’t argue with the results.
I like WGGTB since it trades on a very Fight Clubesque style – combatively inspirational. I also think it’s very much of its place and time (libertarian, uber individualistic USA). However, while I suspect if Jared and I met at a dinner party we would have a great conversation, deep down he’s still a “finance bro” with finance bro values.
@ermine on occasional work post RE: I’m fortunate to be in a field where I get called up by the expert networks occasionally to do hour long chat for a fee. It does require you to keep up with the latest trends and firms in the space but it’s otherwise relatively low effort, “easy money”. Worth looking at IMO.
> I’m fortunate to be in a field where I get called up by the expert networks occasionally to do hour long chat for a fee.
Yeah, despite being on the retirement is retirement purist end of the spectrum when I left full-time work, which was a reaction to the crappy nature of the end, I did occasional bits. Largely driven out of fear rather than for a positive reason, though that softened with time. At times I earned a higher hourly rate than when working properly.
But it never really amounted to a hill of beans, though it did matter in the immediate suckout post-work-pre SIPP, to at least improve my investing rate. That’s more the point I was striving at. If you are earning a decent screw FT and then quit, don’t just assume you can come back to that. I carried on earning FT for three years after I really, really wanted to quit because I could see that reality. Once out I was out for good earning that sort of level, and it was never in the league of most people on here even at the high water mark.
@ZX “I also agree with him that, at least in the UK, lean-FIRE advocates are often free-loading on the state with free medical care, free education etc.”
Sounds awfully like “From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs” 🙂
In reality you need to be earning over the median wage before you become a net contributor in the UK. Half the population are “freeloaders” by that measure. We are all standing on your shoulders ZX.
@ermine – sorry to clarify, when I said ‘Ermines internal locus of control maybe deficient’ I didn’t mean yours personally, more that you (correctly) identified the characteristic as being important/relevant to FIRE and I’m pointing out that it maybe lacking in some other individuals trying to do the same thing.
To cut a long story short you need to figure out sooner rather than later if you’re the sort who, without a job, might struggle to stay engaged and motivated with the world. If you are then you need to work on that well in advance of jacking in work, or just don’t jack in the job full-stop.
Autonomy is a double edged sword, its great to be able to do what you want but you do need to be able to think of things to do, and not just all leisure/pleasure stuff. Clearly smart people have struggled with this, Finimus wrote of getting bored – ‘I did all the DIY and cycling I could’ and went back to work, it isn’t easy (although ermine is a natural and makes it look like it is).
The ‘should I work or not’ post FI is a false dichotomy, its just about doing your own thing with the nuance of whether you get paid or not. Both ermine and TI are just doing their own thing (and that’s the important bit) but TI has the additional caveat that he wants a few magic beans on top to sweeten the deal.
There are other things like being social and being part of something bigger than yourself that can be challenging to recreate outside of traditional work/jobs, I think its possible though, just requires a lot of conscious thought and effort.
On the ZX moral freeloader angle, I think part of the problem there is the lack of any wealth tax in the UK. The libertarian in me wouldn’t want to stop anyone ducking out of work if thats what they really wanted and they’d planned and saved to do so, the fact that the UK tax regime (being so income focussed) kind of forces them to be a freeloader isn’t really their fault. Maybe if you were really bothered you could carry on with type 2/3 nics, even past the 35yr high-water mark? Don’t know if thats possible, maybe some generous soul here is already doing it?
Another common moral complaint is rampant inequality which the ‘I’ve made a million by March’ brigade are party to, though I think this is less pernicious than freeloading, they do pay a lot of tax right?
TI also says ‘Being free to do whatever you want to with your weekdays before you’re 50. And not having to care what anybody else – boss, random blogger, or brother-in-law – thinks about it.’ On that I’d argue retiring early only solves the boss issue, in as much as you won’t have one, no-one in their right mind should care what random bloggers think, and as for the brother in law, well is this a call to arms for remaining single? Otherwise, not caring what family and friends think is just a state of mind, but go too far and you can risk being a bit of a twat with all the accompanying associated poor outcomes
@rhino nice summary.
Why’s there no like button on here?
Even God works, only taking a rest on the seventh day. Granted, his work was making heaven and the earth so perhaps deserving of a rest.
And even Adam in Eden had to work “to dress it and to keep it” i.e. work was a part of Eden.
More interestingly, Adam’s punishment for eating the apple is “in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread”.
This suggests there is nothing ‘bad’ in work and indeed it is inevitable if you define work as creating order from chaos. That is the best kind of work which has a redemptive quality. It aligns with the view that not everyone can FIRE or the economy doesn’t work.
But there are clearly other types of work – like the ones that make you sweat. Given there is no avoiding work whether in heaven or hell, it’s a case of finding the right work (which is also one of JD’s points).
This doesn’t have to be taken in a literal religious sense (I’m not religious), but an observation on humanity’s relationship with work more broadly.
Jared quotes:
“The biggest draw to leave Corporate America was quality of life. I make my own hours…I travel…my own boss… it’s great and has had a huge impact on my overall happiness and well-being.”
“I live in Myrtle Beach. I make my own hours and I can travel. Things are really good. In order for me to lose that, it would have to be a really compelling opportunity.
“Most guys I know who are still in finance work extremely hard during the week so they can enjoy the weekends at the beach. I have to admit, working at the beach sounds so much better”.
Bloody hypocrite! How many people can work as few or as many hours as they wish from ‘Myrtle Beach’? Not many is the answer so we strive to reach F.I.R.E with most of us achieving it in our 50’s rather than 30something he bangs on about.
He has obviously reached F.I. but has not yet chosen to full R.E.
He’s just another one of them ‘financial helpers’ we all read about in bogle’s book (story of the Gotrocks family) who wants his fingers in ‘your’ pie. He is selling his books and subscriptions to the fools who are probably the most desperate to reach F.I.R.E.
I read the Jared Dillian article because I wanted to see if I would learn anything new and I can’t say that I did. I’ve always tried to go for balance in my pursuit of FIRE, I’m not sacrificing anything so still living the life I want to now, while considering the life I want to live in the future, one which doesn’t involve work and more importantly, doesn’t involve me living in poverty.
I do believe FIREing too early might not be a good idea – I’ve enjoyed the vast majority of my career and made life-long friends along the way so would have missed out massively on that.
What Dillian’s article doesn’t mention (but has been mentioned in the comments) is that FIRE or aiming for FIRE gives you options, of which one of them is to retire early if you want to.
I don’t dislike my job but there are certainly elements of it which I won’t be sad saying goodbye to forever, when the time comes. As a peri-menopausal woman, I’m just glad that I don’t have to be doing this into my 60s.
@platformer — I just replied to your email re: your missing comment on the 7/93 article. Unfortunately this address bounces?
Anyway apologies. 🙂 I have to retrieve some mislabelled spam comments every day — by manually drudging through several hundred spam comments about underage sex, viagra, crypto scams, cheap loans, and all kinds of other stuff, exposing myself to it like the chap undergoing ‘therapy’ in A Clockwork Orange.
You’ll understand I tend not to linger on each one 🙁 So sometimes I do miss a real comment in the ‘try not to look at the details’ scanning process. I think I catch most though!
One more small point re: JD on consumerism (then I’ll shut up). Whereas I’m not at all convinced FIRE is generally a good idea for the majority, I am pretty much convinced consumerism is bad for almost everyone – to me its much more clear cut, its right up there with smoking, morris-dancing and incest. Morgan Housel hit the nail on the head when he said what people are looking for in consumerism is really respect and admiration, and consumerism is a really poor surrogate for those two fundamental requirements. Thats not to say things you buy can’t bring you joy though. The acid-test is whether you like a thing more after owning it for a year or two. I find things like bikes, surf-boards, certain tools and very good quality clothing can occasionally surpass this high bar. I find this can be accentuated if there is an element of upkeep and expertise associated with using the item. If you feel that way about something you bought a good while ago then you can rest assured you weren’t being a mindless consumer back when you went out shopping who really just wanted someone to tell you how great they thought you were 😉
Hmm! The Dillian article was a pretty basic strawman argument. Nothing insightful or interesting. However, It does give me a chance to repeat my thought that it was always the financial independence that interested me, not the retire early specifically.
I first came across the idea of ‘drop dead’ money in James Clavell’s Noble House (published 1981), but the idea of having enough money to be secure against all but the worst tail events is much older than that. Jane Austen’s writing is full of it, and it has been estimated that £1,000 p.a. is the key number (https://jasna.org/publications-2/persuasions-online/vol36no1/toran/). Per the BoE Inflation calculator that is £69,000 in today’s money if we pick the mid-point of Jane’s life around 1800 as the start point.
I think a lot of people would feel that was comfortable for a family today, so we do seem to track inflation with our desire for comfort and security (tongue firmly in cheek). No servants now, but I do have a dishwasher and an iPhone.
I agree with @Rhino’s view on consumerism :-).
I think most of the attack was against a straw man version of FIRE for sure and was very hyperbolic, I assume that’s his normal writing style?
There was some truth though in the following which I would agree can be some definite concerns rather than outright criticisms;
– Suffering a really bad job for years and living life on fast forward. I did this in the early days but then I was fortunate to find a good job and focussed far more on enjoying life now and not rushing towards older age. It’s live for now and tomorrow.
– Living very close to the bare bones for a large retirement horizon (30-50 years with no buffer at 4% or even 3%). I can well imagine that I would be highly worried about money running out if this were the case and it would impact day to day life. I myself have a bridging fund that gets me to a more or less guaranteed safety net of pensions at 68+. I can then live on my bridge (not physically) for 18 – 20 years and during this time, I can spend less without impacting me too much if there was a huge crash.
– Having a fantasy view of what retirement will look like – I do agree that some views of what life will be like when retired are a bit idealised but at the end of the day, with a good plan or no plan – not needing to work can bring so much opportunity to do as little or as much as you like. It just won’t be constant smiles and cakes… (or will it?…)
As for the rest of it, I think it’s almost 100% straw being attacked.
TFJ
@TI Are my eyes deceiving me, in which case mea culpa, or are weenie #34 and #35 identical posts which have somehow found their way in?
@Factor — Indeed. I un-spammed one then another came through naturally it seems. Thanks for the heads-up! Normal amount of @Weenie now restored. 😉
From Jared’s blog post:
“But go out and buy a new Rolex and tell me that stuff doesn’t make you happy.”
Erm, no. Not really. It takes a special type of person to derive happiness from material possessions. It’s almost as if they bought the marketing bs.
But we FIREees also have to recognise we need mugs like him to support our lifestyle choice. Not our fault though. We’re just taking advantage of a feature (or bug?) of our current economic dogma. So, consumers, consume away!