Welcome, grab a stool for our latest interview with a Monevator reader who has achieved FIRE (Financial Independence Retire Early). Okay, so this month’s interviewee ‘Cheap and Cheerful’ has actually moved the goalposts late in the game and hasn’t yet pulled the ripcord on the daily grind. But fear not! This isn’t simply another case of One More Year syndrome. It’s more the potential for one more cost centre…
A place by the FIRE
Hello! How do you feel about taking stock of your financial life today?
Pretty pretty good! I had a big birthday recently and by most metrics I’m financially independent. I’m weighing up whether to retire. I’m still just about in one year more mode which perhaps I shouldn’t be. I’m a bit of a pessimist so there is always going to be a part of me that never thinks that I have enough. I think I might also struggle with no longer ‘accumulating’ in the event that I did hand in my notice.
How old are you?
41. I’m married and have been for nearly eight years. (We were courting eight years before our marriage).
Do you have any dependents?
No. Tongue firmly in cheek: we do have a cat which forms a disproportionate part of our discretionary expenditure.
My wife and I have recently decided that we would like to have one child. Given our relatively old ages on this front, conceiving might be tricky, and we don’t want to go down the IVF route. Clearly, if we do have a child this will impact upon our finances and we are budgeting accordingly.
Whereabouts do you live and what’s it like there?
East London. We’ve lived here since 2017.
There are great aspects: we’re walking distance from the City, and near great restaurants, cinemas, museums, and galleries. Another attractive aspect is the relatively cheap running costs of the flat.
Less good is the low level crime and anti-social behaviour, which has probably got worse in recent years. Life is about trade-offs!
If we have a child then we will look to move after the first few years but still stay in London. We don’t really want to move somewhere that involves driving and prefer city living.
When do you consider you achieved Financial Independence and why?
I’m not entirely sure. It’s complicated slightly by our recent decision to have a child. Before we made that decision I would say I probably achieved financial independence at 37.
My new aim is to build savings and investments that will allow withdrawals of c.£50,000 per annum, excluding my wife’s salary, covering my wife and I for the rest of our life, which I think our current finances just about allow.
My finances and my wife’s finances are quite separate currently and she does not want to retire early. If we have a child she will carry on working after maternity leave and I will be the stay at home Dad.
Any qualms?
Well, I worry about prospective equity market returns from broad indices over the next decade, particularly the US. We are well overdue a prolonged bear market and I’ve been ‘de-risking’ my portfolio over the last few years.
Assets: productivity over property
What is your current net worth?
My net worth is £1.96m and my wife’s is around £640,000.
What are the main assets that make up your net worth?
My assets are as follows:
- Half share of our flat c.£250,000. (No mortgage.)
- Investments
- GIA – £665,875
- ISA – £452,220
- SIPP – £559,258
- Defined contribution workplace pension – £18,246
- Cash – £14,524
What’s your main residence like? Do you own or rent it?
It’s a two-bedroom flat with quite high ceilings which doesn’t get too hot in the summer. We own it outright with no mortgage. We purchased a share in the freehold not long after buying it, which thankfully avoids the problems of leasehold. We like living in flats and don’t really want to move to a bigger property, which invariably eats into your money and time.
Having said that if we have a child we would look to move at or around primary school age. We would still live in a flat or small property that is slightly bigger than where we live now.
The reason for moving would be more about moving to a slightly better area. Whitechapel has a fair amount of squalor, although Cambridge Heath Road has become somewhat gentrified which has been pleasant. (I’m all in favour of gentrification!)
Do you consider your home an asset, an investment, or something else?
Although I’ve listed my share of the flat as an asset, I don’t really regard it as such. Though I suppose I regard it as an asset in that I am not exposed to the uncertainties of the rental market, and rent does not form part of my annual expenditure.
Unlike many of my peers – and Britain in general – I do not think property is a very attractive investment. My Grandad thought property was a bad investment, which made sense given that he was born in 1918 and had a very different experience of property to my parents’ generation.
Most people don’t really monitor their annual running costs properly and certainly don’t quantity the cost of filling up extra rooms with more and more stuff!
If you want to FIRE then keeping property costs low is very important.
Earning: on the run from the law
What’s your profession?
Ignoring jobs before graduating from university, I’ve had two main jobs: a solicitor until I was 32 and an investment manager since then.
I did a history degree before going to law school for two years to do a law conversion course. I managed to get a training contract at a law firm before going to law school and they paid my fees and gave me an allowance. That basically paid my costs for the two years. I don’t think I would have gone to law school without this.
I found law quite dull. The area that interested me the most was private client work – wills, trusts, estate planning, tax, domicile and residency – which I specialised in. This was helpful in giving me a degree of expertise in tax, which is obviously quite important in one’s overall personal finances.
I can do my own will, tax return, and Lasting Power of Attorney. That saves considerably on professional fees.
And the switch?
I changed careers at 32, as I thought it was time to do a job where the subject matter naturally interested me – investment.
I’ve enjoyed being an investment manager more than a solicitor (although perhaps not as much as I hoped). The introduction of working from home improved my working experience too. I’m very introverted and find a busy office environment quite frankly a bit exhausting. And I really dislike committees and meetings, which seem to me often exercises in self-promotion.
I like the Japanese concept (hopefully it is still practiced) of only having meetings when there is a new point of business to discuss.
Performance reviews and interviews are all pretty grim too.
Can you tell me a little more about your job? For instance, are you running a fund? (Not that I’m an investing groupie with my nose pressed up against the sheer glass walls of the financial service industries’ skyscrapers or anything…)
My role involves managing a client’s investment portfolio by selecting investments and tailoring it to their requirements. Sometimes we work alongside financial planners who give tax, pension, and cashflow planning advice. It does not involve running a fund but I suppose the roles are not too dissimilar.
The job is client facing. We have internal analysts who provide investment recommendations, which we can follow. We have annual meetings – sometimes more frequent – with clients to explain investment performance, portfolio activity, and outlook.
What is your annual income?
My current annual employment income plus bonus and pension contributions is approximately £90,000.
My investment income (dividends and interest) is around £45,000 a year.
I don’t invest to generate dividends per se – I invest where I see value.
How did your career and salary progress over the years – and was pursuing financial independence part of the plan?
My initial salary as a trainee solicitor (two years) was £25,000. It then doubled to £50,000.
When I left the law I was earning around £80,000. Changing careers adversely impacted my salary in the short-term as I started at the bottom again as an investment manager. My salary progressed very quickly after passing my investment exams. And my investment knowledge was very high compared to most other people at my level.
I suppose I began thinking about early retirement as a concept when I began to read about equity investment in my early 20s. I had the grim realisation that to have the option of not being an employee I’d have to save like billy-o and invest well.
If I had substantially less money saved by 32 I would have not have switched careers. In some ways I’m quite risk-averse.
Did you learn anything about building your career and growing income that you wished you’d known earlier?
Not a huge amount. I suppose I would have liked to have entered the investment world earlier as I didn’t really like law. But then again, private client law gave me some very useful skills.
Do you have any sources of income besides your main job?
Yes. The largest part of my wealth accumulation has been through investing. As I’ve said, my investment income stream is currently c.£45,000 a year.
Did pursuing FIRE get in the way of your career?
I wouldn’t say in a direct sense but possibly indirectly in impacting my mindset.
I knew from an early stage that I didn’t want to be a partner having to spend much of my time managing people and clients. Additionally, I didn’t want the stress that comes from being a partner.
Many of them well and truly have the ‘golden handcuffs’ on with massive mortgages and expensive lifestyles and are often seriously stressed. I guess that attaining high status conquers all for some.
You seem to like your job and you clearly like investing. Do you really need to retire? Have you considered something more part-time or ad hoc instead?
My job is okay. I’m not sure that I have ever particularly liked being an employee. I find being around other people all day tiring. There are parts of the job – business development, marketing, committees, client admin – that I don’t like. But I have a good relationship with my boss who shields me from some of this.
Perhaps I don’t need to retire. Knowing I have enough money to retire has made me somewhat pampered as I know I don’t really have to do things that I don’t want to do!
Working from home has been a godsend. I have hinted at working part-time but I’m not sure how well this would work in practice.
Saving: a genetic inheritance
What is your annual spending? How has this changed over time?
My annual expenditure has always been very low. This is somewhat a family tradition.
My grandparents – tenant farmers – were ultra-frugal. My Dad said that they employed an accountant once (not sure for what exactly – some sort of farming thing) and he couldn’t believe how anyone could spend so little money. The accountant actually thought that they were on the fiddle!
My grandparents almost seemed to forget that rationing no longer existed. They saved bread bags, never bought new clothes, and so on.
My Dad was and is very frugal too. He retired at 45 so perhaps frugality is somewhat hereditary?
A pension adviser came to his workplace once and said in terms of saving he was in the top 1% of his workplace. Had he not been so frugal then my life would have been considerably worse, as sadly my Mum was diagnosed with Pick’s Disease when I was 14 – she was 45 at the time – now more commonly known as frontotemporal dementia. She died when I was 16.
Clearly, this event has shaped me and my attitude to money considerably. I view money to some extent as a shield as a result.
During my Mum’s illness I didn’t see many friends as I had to help look after her, which I didn’t regard as a hardship at the time. The hardship was watching her deteriorate knowing that she was going to die.
I learnt to make my own entertainment and read a lot which is my favourite thing to do. Even before my Mum’s illness I always enjoyed my own company. I didn’t actually look forward to the ‘play dates’ that she used to arrange when she was well!
One thing that I enjoyed doing which other people would probably find odd was writing out what I thought should have been the starting XI’s of all the Premier League and football league starting XIs. My memory for facts and figures at that age was pretty good!
Anyway, I got sidetracked…
Not at all, early childhood adversity often shapes the adult. And it’s easy to agree that your mum’s unfortunate early illness could have led to you developing a more cautious mindset.
Well, to get back on track I remember that when I earned my first year’s salary as a trainee solicitor – £25,000 – I saved £8,000. That’s excluding investment income or gains, so just from salary. My rent inclusive of bills was pretty cheap though at £300 a month. I wasn’t living in London then!
My saving rate stayed very high. In fact that was probably my lowest savings rate, at 32%.
My current annual expenditure now is around £17,000 a year, which includes £2,000 a year commuting. I separate my general expenditure and commuting costs as the latter will fall away should I stop working.
My current savings rate including investment income is roughly 85% on a pre-tax basis.
So you’re still spending like you did in your early 20s?
My spending has gradually increased over time, but my wife and I haven’t succumbed to lifestyle inflation. We go on holiday, have spent money on improving the flat, got a cat, go to the cinema sometimes, and eat out or meet up with friends periodically.
Some areas of lifestyle inflation have been no longer walking 35 mins to go to Lidl, spending more on holidays, and even buying some art!
Thankfully, my wife is also frugal. Clearly, if she wasn’t our marriage would not have worked.
My wife’s parents are Indian immigrants who came to Britain in the early noughties, having lived in India, the US, and Australia. She jokes that my family have an immigrant spending mentality.
If we have a child then our spending will increase a fair bit. But if I am indeed the stay at home dad, we will save a lot on nursery fees, thankfully.
Our joint spending is currently around £35,000 annually. I’m budgeting for this to increase to £50,000 over the long-term.
My wife plans to carry on working, as I mentioned, and this gives our budget more ‘flex’. Her current salary is £45,000, working four days a week.
That £2,000 seems a lot to spend on commuting costs, given you live quite centrally and you like to walk. Though I guess it does rain…
My commuting situation is a bit odd as I don’t currently work in London. This is because I wanted to work with my boss who I get on with very well. I have worked with other people previously who I really did not like. This is more important to me than location.
Will you leave London if/when you retire, or do you see your flat as your long-term home, despite what sounds a bit like a growing dissatisfaction with the area?
My wife works in London and walks to work. We’re both happy in London for now. We may look to move out but this wouldn’t be for at least ten years in all likelihood.
I think we would always live in a city as we don’t like cars.
Do you stick to a budget or otherwise structure your spending?
I don’t have a fixed budget. I do track my spending. My aim is to spend £15,000 per annum excluding commuting costs. But this is not a hard budget.
I’d probably be a bit peeved if my spending went above £20,000 per annum.
Regarding food, a friend at law school mentioned that for his main meal of the day if he was doing the cooking he would not want to spend more than £2. I hadn’t really thought about this before but I liked the simplicity of it and I still broadly stick to this today!
What percentage of your gross income did you save over the years?
I can’t be precise but I’ve always saved a very large percentage of my gross income. As we’ve already covered, my lowest savings rate was when I began full time work at 32%. It is now 85%.
What’s the secret to saving more money?
The main secret is to be content with very little. My idea of a perfect day is a day with no appointments that includes reading, going for a long walk, and possibly playing The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild.
I don’t find frugality a hardship. It’s just a consequence of how I like to live. Many people would probably find my life very boring.
I don’t think FIRE is necessarily right for most people. There is no point in making yourself miserable if that is how saving excessively makes you feel.
I believe people who like routine and who are introverted are naturally better-equipped to be savers.
Do you have any hints about spending less?
None of my saving tips are particularly revelatory. The big ticket items are: buying a home that is well below what you can afford; not having children or pets (we now have a cat and trying to have a child!); and not having a car.
I live quite centrally in London so will walk wherever possible without getting the Tube, even if this results in a one-hour walk. Clearly, this isn’t always practical. But walking is fantastic all round and people don’t do enough of it.
Other smaller tips include meal prepping for the week and bringing your own lunch to work. We also divide our clothes into ‘slob clothes’ which are only for home and ‘normalising clothes’ for public. This reduces the wear and tear of the ‘normalising clothes’, making them last much longer. We have a few T-shirts that are 25 years old.
Also, we only buy household appliances when they break. Our TV is 12 years old and our microwave 15 years old.
You’re clearly comfortable in your own skin…
You really can do what you want in life. Don’t do things to impress other people who by and large don’t care. Avoid having friends where meeting up is going to cost you £100 every time you see them.
A lot of people fall into the trap of ‘spending money they don’t have to do things that they don’t want to do to impress people they don’t like’.
Our wedding, unsurprisingly, was very cheap – in a registry office with seven people. The thought of a big wedding filled me absolute dread. I know that I disappointed some people by having the wedding that I did but you can’t live your life trying to please other people if it makes you miserable.
People seem to forget that they have agency and often go through life sleep walking. You are allowed to do what you want – within reason!
Do you have any passions or hobbies or vices that eat up your income?
Not really. Our spending on our cat would be high relative to our overall expenditure. Our spending on food and holidays have also increased over the years.
I enjoy lower league football and county cricket, but I am not a regular in-person spectator these days.
When you ask for an image and your interviewee gives a personal snap of Edward Hopper’s Nighthawks, you know you’re in the company of a fellow introvert, as much as a fellow FIRE-ee…
Investing: on the defensive
What kind of investor are you?
Active. I’ve been ‘de-risking’ my portfolio in recent years to give me additional ballast should I FIRE. I’m also bearish generally looking ahead. US large-cap equities are well overdue a prolonged bear market.
I think people with no real knowledge, expertise, or interest in the stock market should probably go passive, although I think that passive might very well encounter problems.
I agree with Mike Green of Simplify’s Asset Management and Russell Napier’s views on passive. At some point I think a combination of de-accumulation from retired boomers alongside protectionism will start adversely impacting passive flows, which have principally been directed to US large cap. If this does transpire then things are going to look very different.
I’ve moved large chunks of my portfolio into defensive investment trusts like Capital Gearing and Personal Assets. Additionally, I initiated a reasonably large position in RIT Capital Partners, largely because of the discount. (For clarity, I don’t regard RIT as defensive).
Mentally, I currently break my portfolio into five parts:
- 1. Commodity equities
- 2. Recession equities
- 3. UK small caps
- 4. International equities
- 5. Defensive investment trusts.
I also have plenty of low-coupon short-dated gilts and cash.
What was your best investment?
I was very fortunate in that I started investing in 2008, right at the very bottom. I inherited £20,000 when my grandmother died and invested it in a concentrated fashion in some small-mid cap UK equities.
The most profitable was Avon Rubber (now Avon Technologies). The returns were spectacular, enabling me to get to a net worth of six-figures very quickly.
I was very lucky!
Did you make any big mistakes on your investing journey?
Not really. I missed out on all the FAANG stocks as I felt I couldn’t take a differentiated view on large-cap US tech. I’m also broadly a value investor, so tech is an area that I normally shy away from.
My worst ‘investment’ by far has been my London flat, which is static in nominal terms since our purchase in 2017. Of course, I’ve lost money on some investments but I’ve managed to avoid big drawdowns.
What has been your overall return, as best you can tell?
I don’t know what my overall return has been as I have only kept records for the last four years. The period from 2008 to 2015 was very good. From 2015 it has been average to slightly ahead of the ACWI (All-Country World Index).
My worst relative year was probably 2024. My portfolio was only up 5.5% versus 19.6% for the ACWI – but I did have around 25% cash. Last year I was up 14.2% which was a very good return considering that only 40% or so of my assets were in equities. My direct equities performed very strongly.
I’ve also had a strong start to this year with my commodity equities performing well. My exposure to US large cap is quite low, too. But I said previously, I expect my investment performance to be lower in the future, as I’ve shifted more to a wealth preservation mode.
I don’t keep precise records compared to a lot of investors. At the start of the year I write down my net worth and details of the investment portfolio. I then do a line for each security outlining why I hold it and what I think the market is missing. I also write down my macro views for the year. This is all on one page.
I like simplicity and think lots of investors like complexity for its own sake to a degree. My Dad details his own investment performance every day, which is really a form of meditation or therapy for him. I don’t want to do that!
How much have you been able to fill your ISA and pension contributions?
I’m fortunate in that I’ve been able to do full ISA and pension contributions for the last few years. I missed out on having a potentially massive ISA as my best early investments were in my GIA. So I’ve had to pay a fair amount of CGT.
Whilst working I will continue to ‘max out’ my pension contributions, assuming the higher-rate relief doesn’t get cut at the next budget.
To what extent did tax incentives and shelters influence your strategy?
Tax is certainly an important consideration. Currently, I have all of my equity type investments in my ISA and SIPP. My defensive investment trusts and low-coupon short-duration gilts are in my GIA.
I don’t do EIS or VCT schemes and the like. Perhaps if my income was above £100,000 I might consider it.
How often do you check or tweak your portfolio or other investments?
First thing in the morning I do a review of any RNS’s for the securities that I hold. I also check the portfolio at the end of each day. I quite like this routine and don’t regard it as work.
I don’t trade very much. I can go for months without doing anything. Though sometimes the activity is more frequent.
I’m certainly not a trader and don’t get any pleasure from it. I like to buy and hold. As Buffett put it: “lethargy bordering on sloth”.
Wealth: two is the new one million
Which is more important, saving or investing, and why?
I think saving for most people is probably more important than investing although both are very important in building wealth. If you can’t save then you can’t really invest.
Unfortunately, the economy in the West is very anti-saving. You’re forced to invest to build wealth and to get on the property ladder. My grandparents didn’t invest and just saved money, which you were able to do pre-zero interest rates.
I think zero interest rates and QE have been absolutely disastrous in exacerbating wealth inequality and inflating asset prices in general, although given the eye-watering levels of government debt I guess there is no going back on that front.
I think some sort of overt financial repression will take place in the West in the not too distant future. Maybe even next year if Trump replaces Powell with a lackey and goes full on Erdogan.
When did you think you’d achieve financial freedom – and was it a goal with a timeline?
It could have been three years ago per the 4% rule, but I wanted to be in a financially stronger situation where my safe withdrawal rate was lower than 4%, and to work until I was at least 40.
Did anything unexpected get in your way?
No. I’ve been very fortunate in my FIRE journey. I should stress I inherited £300,000 unexpectedly when my stepmother died. I was 32 at the time. This helped considerably and obviously gave me a big leg-up. I massively admire those who have FIRE-ed without any inheritances or gifts.
And you’re still growing your pot?
Yes, my pot is still growing and the snowball is gathering momentum – 2025 was a very good year for me. It is growing through a combination of employment and investment income and gains.
Do you have any further financial goals?
My goal is to protect my wealth and beat inflation in the future. I quite like the idea of attaining a net worth of £2m before retiring.
I think I do have a problem with no longer accumulating wealth, which probably does not reflect particularly well on me. I also view wealth as a shield to protect oneself against the bad things that can happen in life. I probably over do that.
What would you say to Monevator readers pursuing financial freedom?
Be honest with yourself and focus on the things that truly matter to you.
Understand that wealth does not move in a linear fashion. You can have months or years when it feels like you’re wading through treacle and then – bam – you accelerate rapidly.
Also, focus on processes rather than outcomes, particularly in investing.
Given elevated valuations in much of the market, focus on the downside rather than the upside.
Assume that your investment thesis might very well be wrong, incorporate a ‘margin of safety’, and avoid first-order thinking, which is the norm in much of the investment world.
If saving money really makes you miserable and deferring gratification does not come naturally, then FIRE isn’t for you.
In the weeds: Buffett is still the best
When did you first start thinking seriously about money and investing?
Before investing I really enjoyed betting on horse racing and sports. I loved the analytical process involved. I also admired Arsene Wenger’s initial recruitment at Arsenal – consistently buying massively undervalued players.
My Dad began talking to me about companies when I was about 21, which I found interesting. I then read The Snowball – Alice Schroeder’s biography on Warren Buffett – which was the catalyst for my investing.
A lot of Buffett’s personal character traits – shyness, fear of public speaking, contrarianism, a desire for independence, and frugality – resonated with me. Most people in business on TV had seemed quite loud and extroverted, which I couldn’t relate to.
I read The Snowball every few years. It’s still the best investing/FIRE type book that I’ve read.
Investing appeals to me on an intellectual level as it is a combination of many different disciplines. I found law incredibly dull in comparison.
Did any particular individuals inspire you to become financially free?
My Dad would be my main influence as he retired at 45. I’ve since discovered that his ambition had been to retire at 40. He passed on his frugality to me and his belief that the best thing about money is that it gives you independence.
None of my friends are interested in FIRE or investing.
Of course, I have read many FIRE stories online and thoroughly enjoy the FIRE-side chats on Monevator! The FIRE stories I particularly like are those people whose employment income has been relatively low. The janitor who became a millionaire, for example.
What about your dad? He was influential on the FIRE side, but what about the investing aspect?
My dad never explicitly encouraged me to invest – and as I say I hadn’t thought about investing as a concept really until I was 21. Once my dad saw that I had an interest in investing, he began to speak to me about it. He then gave me advice and helped me open my first investment account.
Before 21 our main topics of conversation were sport and history. And my dad’s parents had no interest in investing whatsoever – they thought it was spivvy! They were, however, prodigious savers just like my dad.
Can you recommend your favourite resources for anyone chasing the FIRE dream?
Monevator of course! On the investment front I’d read Margin of Safety by Seth Klarman and The Snowball by Alice Schroeder.
Margin of Safety emphasises the importance of looking at investment as a risk assessor and focusing on the downside. Many younger investors – WallStreetBets types – don’t seem to do that now. But a lot of building wealth and investing is about avoiding the big drawdowns.
The Snowball highlights the character traits that I think are helpful in achieving FIRE: discipline, focus, independence, contrarianism, and frugality.
A lot of the FIRE stuff on YouTube is crap. I haven’t learnt many ‘life hacks’ from YouTube videos on the FIRE front.
I listen to quite a few investment podcasts. I quite like listening to John Lee on Investors’ Chronicle given his preference for UK Small Caps. I think lots of investors are a bit snooty towards him because of his preference for dividends and because of an age bias.
The Acquired podcast does some excellent in-depth episodes on the history of companies like Nintendo, Microsoft, Google, and so on that I’d recommend.
What is your attitude towards charity and inheritance?
If we can’t have a child I will start giving more to charity as I age. I’ll probably leave most of my money to charity on the death of both my wife and me. Of course, this would be different if we manage to have a child.
As I’ve inherited money, I don’t really have a problem with it otherwise I wouldn’t have accepted it! I think it’s natural that people want to provide and look after their families.
My Dad is giving most of his money to charity when he dies, which doesn’t bother me. Given the complexity of Inheritance Tax and the time it takes HMRC to administer it – and the amount of tax legislation devoted to it (see the massive Tolley’s Yellow Book tax manuals) – it would be better to abolish it and replace it with a Land Value Tax.
The tax system in the UK is a mess and getting worse.
What will your finances ideally look like towards the end of your life?
I haven’t really thought about it, but I think I would struggle to Die with Zero. Psychologically, wealth is a bit of a shield or comfort blanket for me. Hopefully I will learn to shake this off.
I don’t mind thinking about death and end of life – I have already done my Will, and put a Lasting Power of Attorney in place. That’s quite unusual for someone of my age.
It’s important to put your affairs in order for those you leave behind. Probate really isn’t very fun. I speak from personal experience.
I enjoy investing too much to get an annuity!
My thanks to Cheep and Cheerful for a great interview, which combines the best of two genres – a frugal mindset and a high income combined with a high savings rate. Thoughts and feedback are welcome, but remember that Cheep and Cheerful is not a hardened blogger like me so please keep it constructive! I’ll delete anything I deem mean or uncivil. Finally, I’d like to wish him and his wife all the best with their hopes for their family.
Absolutely lovely story and it’s great to see the introverts seem to take the world of FI/RE again 😉 The world of work favours extroverts but the world after work flips that on its head, it seems. All the very best of luck with your future, whether it includes children or not, and well done starting in the runout of the GFC!
@Cheap & Cheerful.
This is a wonderful piece. I’m having to make a decision about ‘FIRE’ing’ or being ‘FI + carry-on working’ right now, and reading some of what you say is really quite helpful.
May I ask: your figures for Net worth & yearly spending are approximately double if you include your wife’s figures?
I consider this quite important, since you are a family unit.
Good luck with the baby stuff. I know plenty of couples who’ve been fertile well into their forties!
Aha! As I sit here as a clin neg lawyer reading and plotting my eventual escape from the world of work. It is very dull and I struggle to understand how my colleagues are still interested in the work after so many years. I realised about 3 years in, in 2016, that I couldn’t do it to retirement. We’re now due to pay our mortgage off in April when our deal ends thanks to initially being a good passive investor and in early 2025 putting *everything* into a specific gold mining share. I’m now de-risking a fair bit, aptly timed with the precious metals market being a bit wobbly and entering 2026 with no mortgage and an ISA that’s twice the size of when we entered 2025.
On a separate point I would say being 40, an introvert and having a 6 year old, you may want to consider using nursery (especially with the free hours). I don’t work Fridays and quite frankly having a day a week, or really only 6 hours, when I’m not working or having to be ‘dad’ is needed to avoid burnout and remind myself than I have my own interests.
I have enjoyed enormously this interview. It reinforces my belief that FIRE is mainly for introverted types like me . I am surprised at the amount of savings achieved in such a short time, it took me much longer to escape work at 55. Anyway best of luck and thank you for sharing your experience.
A wonderful example of “etre bien dan sa peau” . I’m not sure I would have had such a focus on wealth preservation at such an early age!
I enjoyed reading this interview. 2+4=6 but then so does 3+3. Whatever it takes. I have a different view on property. You make your money when you buy your property – not when you sell it. Flats are never going to outperform a house. I’ve always believed every extra bedroom you can afford is a great investment. Buy a fixer upper – hold on to it for at least 10 years and add value. Sell it when you FIRE and downsize to pay off your mortgage (if you still have one). My way is not the only way – but every little helps 🙂
This was a terrific read, many thanks to both interviewee and interviewer for their time.
Kudos for mentioning the inheritance. Is that the first fireside we’ve seen with a significant inheritance component?
So has that bought you about six years forward? Or is that too simplistic a way of looking at it?
Very interesting, thanks for contributing your story. Even allowing for inheritance and high salary that’s an impressive accumulation of wealth in what, 16-17 years of work?
I identify with a lot of the frugality, I always brought lunches into work, often to the amusement of others.
Interesting too that you are derisking now, some idea of your asset allocation would be enlightening if you are able to share.
Best of luck for the future.
Very nice article the investor and cheap and cheerful. Cc- your track record is amazing, well done. And I totally respect how you have chosen to do it. Personally your ultra frugal lifestyle would be very challenging for me to follow but you did a great job explaining why you have chosen the life that you have. Good luck on the baby front.
Very interesting post.
Thanks to you and @TI too for pulling it all together.
Lots of points already covered by others so just a couple of others from me:
a) OOI, what made you pick Avon? If my fag packet sums are about right had you gone all in with them from their trough in Dec 2008 (with the inheritance from your grandmother) you would currently have your £2m target value; although it would have been about twice that at the end of 2020! Do you still have them?
b) I note you and your wife run separate finances. Do you broadly split the cost of housing/food/joint holidays, etc 50/50 or is there more to it than that? Also, does she do her own investing?
Lastly, awesome achievement in such a short time at a still relatively young age (with a career hop thrown in for good measure too) – well done.
I enjoyed hearing about your journey and love how you have opted out of the consumer treadmill. You sound very happy in your skin.
However, when you said most partners are stressed out on maintaining their lifestyles it made me want to tell my story. I think I’ve got more in common with your mindset than my fellow partners
Spooky – I have a print of Edward Hopper’s Nighthawks behind me as I’m reading this and a print of Cold War Steve’s version in front of me.
Very much enjoyed your story, thank you for sharing it.
Strangely Avon Protection has also allowed me to reach FI early, but by working there and making good use of their salary sacrifice pension scheme (I’m also doing the ‘one’ more year as I’m mostly enjoying it). Also by adding all of the pay rise I got when I started there into my pension – I was used to living on less and saw no reason for lifestyle inflation Alas I didn’t time buying their shares correctly.
Lovely story. I liked the reference to “financial behaviour of an immigrant family”. How much are cost-cutting and saving pre-occupations inherited, and how much learned?
My dad, born in 1920, was an internal migrant, brought up by his grandfather and an aunt on a small-holding in Welsh-speaking Pembrokeshire. He matriculated in 1935 and GWR provided a one way ticket from Whitland so that he could work for them in Paddington – he lived in the YMCA in Stockwell. He was later transferred to Cardiff. He and my mother (who walked to and from work to save the bus fares) were dedicated savers, living with her parents until they could afford to buy their first house when I was four and my sister two. Our first tv was purchased only after I passed the 11 plus; our first car only when I was old enough to drive. We benefitted enormously from our parents’ frugality, being gifted deposits for house purchases when we married. Their continuing savings habit directly and indirectly provided deposits for the first house purchases of our four children.
They didn’t think of themselves as self-sacrificing; they were just doing their best for their children and grandchildren – and they regarded their modest consumption pattern as normal and appropriately prudent. The sizes of the Jones’s cars and houses were of little concern to them.
We are part of the gilded generation of immediate post WWII babies benefitting from free university education and relatively well paid white collar jobs. We like to think we have similar approaches to money as our parents, but we have certainly enjoyed more of the good things in life than they did. Our children (aged 43 – 52) have never known financial hardship or the dread that there would be no fall-back position if one or two things went wrong; their decisions to live and work abroad were taken in the knowledge that they could afford to return at short notice if required, unlike their grandfather’s one-way ticket to London. Furthermore, such moves, with wider gaps between income and expenditure than equivalent jobs in UK, hastens their financial independence – subject to the number of children they rear.
But will this pattern be available to our nine grandchildren (14 – 31)? Deposits for first houses may be achievable, but the favourable outcomes that have been achieved to now have depended on rising incomes and increases in house prices. In the face of likely AI impacts on middle class jobs and incomes and the knock-on impact on the price of assets such as houses, could we be facing a variant on the entrepreneurial family story of clogs to clogs in 3 or 4 generations?
FIRE does highlight a contradiction: the national / world economy (as measured by GDP) demands that we spend more – whether on needs, wants, or complete nonsense; really poor people cannot save; immigrants and those who behave like them do save from relatively low incomes; the relatively affluent (possibly childless and less sociable in a showing-off sense) can achieve individual “financial independence” well short of traditional retirement ages, short of the whole world going bonkers – not a zero possibility; the seriously affluent (and this can now be achieved in decades rather than generations) will decide the outcomes for the rest of us.
The claim that the portfolio is defensive is non-conventional.
“Mentally, I currently break my portfolio into five parts:
1. Commodity equities
2. Recession equities
3. UK small caps
4. International equities
5. Defensive investment trusts.”
I note the comment about holding significant amounts of cash and cash-close gilts, which contributes some dilution.
However, the portfolio is notable for its complete absence of risky, fixed-interest assets. This is a profoundly unconventional approach, and doesn’t really justify the claim to be de-risked for FIRE, insofar as Markowitz’s diversification work is being apparently ignored.
Really enjoyed reading this one, lots to relate to in terms of personality, interests! Nighthawks is the one piece of art that I really like and would go to aswell – introverts assemble (but not too close)
I would say, being at similar age, don’t discount IVF. My partner and I (both age 40) are two unsuccessful cycles in, after two years of trying naturally, wishing we had made the decision earlier and not knowing what the future holds on that front. I am grateful that investing has allowed us to a) be able to afford multiple rounds of IVF and b) will also allow the luxury of at least one of us, likely me rather than her, being able to stop working for a bit if and when we need to (temporarily or prehaps longer).
Good luck to you both, all the best and thanks again for sharing your story.
Summations like this are misleading, because they mix gross and net assets as if there were no difference:
“Half share of our flat c.£250,000. (No mortgage.)
Investments
GIA – £665,875
ISA – £452,220
SIPP – £559,258
Defined contribution workplace pension – £18,246
Cash – £14,524”
A more accurate summation can be obtained by applying a taxation factor to either gross up or net down the sums.
With £50k p.a. withdrawals, the taxation rate is likely to be 15% or lower, so the SIPP and WP should be netted down to (at least) £475,370 and £15,510 respectively.
The GIA, ISA and cash could, alternatively, be grossed up to (at most) £783,380, £532,020 and £17,090.
On a gross (pension-fund-like) basis, the portfolio is worth £1.909,990.
On a net (ISA-like) basis, the portfolio is worth £1,623,500.
Note that I didn’t bother to include the 50% of a £250k flat (£125,000 net or £147,060 grossed). I’m sure most of you are capable,
The interviewee’s use of the term “net worth” is idiomatic.
@Jonathan — Your point re: taxation is correct in so far as it goes, but as everyone’s tax rates are different — and even an interviewee is unlikely to be sure what rate they’ll pay on a particular pound drawn down over the next 20 years — it’s also IMHO futile to look for that granularity in these reports.
That aside I allow interviewees a great deal of latitude in how they present their statement of affairs. It’s one reason I’d suggest why they are willing to take part (bravely — plenty turn down a request to do such an interview).
I agree with your other point that a lack of bonds is unconventional re: risk reduction, though not unusual among investors, rightly or wrongly, post-2022. I expect C&C believes cash is doing the heavy lifting here, plus as an active stockpicker they are taking idiosyncratic positions and risks of course. 🙂
The bleedin’ obvious hadn’t occurred to me – if you have no children then you are likely to hang on to an inheritance and invest it.
Whereas if you are blessed with children and grandchildren you might be tempted to give it away – as we have. None was huge but they do add up. Or rather they don’t, being dispersed.
@Jonathan #18 – For reasons that are completely beyond me I’ve never considered that I should account for net and gross savings differently and translate one into the other. I do it subconsciously when looking at them, and now that you point it out it’s absolutely obvious that it needs accounting for, so thanks!
@TI – I understand not wanting to push methodologies on interviewees, and totally agree with that, but I’m left wondering what other blatantly obvious things I’m missing WRT my net worth and future income calculations. While I agree that you can’t predict taxation levels, especially with all the meddling and stealth taxes these days, it’s stupid of me to have been adding GIA, pension and ISA numbers together as if they’re interchangeable to track my net worth. Is there a Monevator article on tips when tracking net worth that I’ve not seen?
@FireIT — It’s tricky, yes. I apply various discounts in my own net worth spreadsheet including for best-guess taxation on some ‘pots’. But as we agree, everyone is going to have a different situation and the realised rates on withdrawal are very uncertain. (Consider that you have government policy in the mix too, as well one’s own personal situation).
To give just one example: Ten years ago (or thereabouts) somebody could have been drawing down a big unsheltered dividend income free of tax and well below the higher-rate threshold. Now that formerly tax-free income is (potentially) subject to significant taxation.
Similar the income from a non-incorporated BTL over the period.
Of course you could say the situation is simpler with an ISA and a SIPP and a GIA (say) and I’d agree, but I do not think it’s ‘simple’ and there’s a bit of hindsight bias if one dismisses the two examples I just gave.
For instance, think of the changes to inheritance tax on pensions and the effective tax rate hike that some would say they’ve now incurred as a result.
Things change all the time. And one’s own best / most tax-efficient withdrawal strategy will change with it (and change again, if one wants to leave a legacy…)
We probably could do a general article outlining the lay of the land. But it’d more ‘here’s a problem to think about’ not ‘here’s a solution’. 🙂
An Interesting and quite open interview and (meant in a good way) coming from a slightly different point of view and more something i could relate to.
I would mention i looked at the Seth Klarman Margin Of Safety book which was mentioned and it might only be the Kindle version but there are more then a couple of books listed that look like the real book but are not – so be warned.
Very informative – thanks for sharing. Personally I don’t think the wealth preservation funds/trusts (CGT, RICA, PNL) have justified their fees in recent years relative to short bonds/TIPS.
Lovely story, thanks for sharing.
Some thoughts on children: 1) they are flipping expensive. 2) if you can keep your income below £100k, there are some generous childcare subsidies to be had. Our 2 year old attends nursery 3 days a week and it’s almost free. Wife and I alternate childcare for the other two weekdays (i.e. we both work 4 days). Mixing part time working and childcare has worked well for us.
On the tax discussion, if you stopped earning you would effectively have a personal + interest + dividend allowance of £18,070 then it’s low rate tax, so in the FIRE future I don’t think the tax implications are too big, particularly given the ISA etc. It would only increase when the pension becomes income. So in a pre pension FIRE phase you would be pretty tax efficient.
By contrast now you are a high income taxpayer, so the tax implications of everything will change depending on what you do. And in your scenario the difference in tax implications between the scenarios is enormous. So if you start doing gross and net it’s very circumstantial. I’m not sure people always realize how much income vs no income shifts the tax needle.
But otherwise would mirror comments that it’s a classic FIRE case, and nice to see a clear example of earning freedom of choice by just not wasting money, and not seeming to feel to have given much up. Sometimes it is as simple as not wasting, and not going crazy in terms of putting money into housing – plus getting a decent income helps of course.
Very interesting. Some of the portfolio choices (e.g. lack of long term bonds) probably make sense if the fear is governments running inflation (probably semi secretly) a bit hot until the national debt feels more manageable. For what it’s worth, I do exactly that too but at the back of my mind I wonder whether I’m just listening to too much social media chatter about dollar debasement etc. Whatever is right will seem obvious in hindsight.
Thanks to the writer for sharing. Like they say, I think it’s a lot easier to FIRE if you are an introvert but then if you’re an extrovert perhaps that helps you to earn more money?
Some great advice and points about living for yourself and thinking about what you really like.
Fascinating read.
With liquid assets of £1.71m, drawing the targeted £50k would represent a sub-3% withdrawal rate.
That’s super safe but I appreciate that you may want to stick with the day job until your family/housing situation is settled.
Like others, I would be interested in understanding the granular detail of your portfolio if you are willing to share.
I’ve always taken ‘net worth’ (sum of assets less liabilities) to be a yardstick for measuring progress. Similarly, people may use gross salary as a measure of success or progression, despite the fact that, for example £99k may yield more post tax income than £101k for some!
Obviously some people choose to include their home, others prefer not to. Any savvy investor is likely to take every opportunity to maximise tax efficiency across their lifetime, albeit rules, allowances and circumstances may change; the post tax figure is likely to change frequently.
An excellent read, thank you for sharing.
Still trying to get my head round your £17k annual expenditure; even if I remove my mortgage costs, I can’t get it that low, so bravo to you for being able to find contentment while spending so little. Your frugality is prompting me to look at my own costs!
Your grandparents saved bread bags? Slightly similar, I save the plastic bags that supermarket bread comes in as they are handy as freezer bags and ultimately end up lining the small bathroom bin!
All the best to you and your missus!
Another fascinating story. Thank you very much.
The diversity or routes to FI/RE is remarkable, and the consistent message that comes through to me from the collection of FIRE-side chats to date is how much the specific pathway depends on the individual personality, history and circumstances. In a really dramatic way.
I think that is an important message that is often missed in the personal investing world. The outcome, and what success looks like to the people involved, is personality-, circumstance-, and path-dependent.
Just as identifying risk appetite is an important part of developing your plan, understanding yourself and your ‘family’ is an important part of developing life-satisfaction. Whether or not @ermine is right, and introverts are more successful at FIRE (and especially the RE bit), a FIRE plan that does not chime with who you are may be financially successful, but not emotionally or intellectually satisfying.
It is always inspiring to hear these accounts, and this one has prompted an interesting discussion. The idea of valuing ISAs and SIPPs/DC pensions differently is obviously right even if you don’t know the eventual effective tax rate. The other one I find difficult is the value of your home, for retirement purposes its paper value seems less relevant than its value as imputed income, i.e. the reduction (because no rent or mortgage) in the income you need to support retirement.
@Anon (or is it Cheap and cheerful?) is very honest in disclosing thoughts about parenthood which do change thinking. We were probably at a similar age on average (Mrs Anon’s age isn’t disclosed) when we decided to try for a child and it wasn’t something that just happened. In the end we did decide to try a round of IVF, and while that wasn’t successful my wife got pregnant the very next month; we suspect the IVF process of stopping then re-starting the hormone cycles might have been helpful. Our daughter did go to nursery (part time) since neither of us were able to become full time parents and actually we don’t regret that since it clearly benefited our daughter – even at her first birthday party there was a clear distinction in social skills between the babies who went to nursery and those who didn’t.
@all — Thanks for all the comments everyone, it’s always heartening to see these pieces strike a chord. They do take quite a bit of effort to pull together, especially of course for the interviewee. And some bravery!
Cheap & Cheerful has let me know they’ve decided not to reply to comments here, and would prefer to just have the piece stand than enter into a back-and-forth about specific points. A bit of a shame I concede but of course their call, and I am always very grateful for people sharing their lives this way so certainly no complaints from me! 🙂
But just a heads-up in case anyone is hanging on for a reply…
Intriguing piece. I see many similarities.
History first degree. Tick. Conversion course/PGDL. Tick. Broadly comparable earnings (£80k pa v £90k pa, although I’m provincial based now with a good DB). Tick. No kids. Tick. Similar net wealth (I’ve very slightly less in ISA/SIPP/GIA, and slightly more in share of home). Tick.
But, I’m older (50 now), and so am incredibly impressed that @Cheap & Cheerful has got to FI at just 41.
Amazing investing and saving discipline there.
Whilst I’m a skinflint (always have been and proud of it), I was well short of where I’m now 9 years ago at age 41.
Wondering how hard was it to pivot from law to finance at 32. I’d love to know more.
And we have a shared perspective on Mike Green. Illiquid markets and a pending reversal of passive flows into the S&P as the later US Boomers and early Gen Xers retire is the closest to something that now keeps me up at night.
The five fold framing of the portfolio is also very interesting, and something I’ll take away to think about.
Thank you to both @Cheap & Cheerful and to @TI for a really thoughtful interview.
p.s. I even have a framed print of Nighthawks in the kitchen!
Great interview, really good to get so much insight into the mindset and introspection which often comes with this sort of life. Funnily enough I’m living not so far from Cheap and Cheerful and on a similar (but less FIRE-orientated) path. I wonder if there’s some way we could meet for a chat over tea some time? Brought in a thermos, if preferred.
Again, really enjoyed this so thank you C&C for sharing and TI for putting together. It’s a really inspiring read and big congratulations for getting there/almost getting there. All the best!