I will cut to the chase. FIRE Year Two was not all sugar-sprinkles and marmalade dreams. Not at all. It was completely dominated by the illness and death of Mrs Accumulator’s mum.
A sudden hospitalisation. Followed by tests, and a diagnosis that brooked no argument. There was a little time left, but not the endless supply you always assume you’ll have.
The sentence seemed suspended for a while. We had a beautiful May Day together in the garden. Mrs TA and I, her mum and step-dad. Everything was set up just as mum liked it.
Dreamy cream tea, dreamy weather, a gentle day, remembered as if in the soft focus of a film. It seemed as though nothing was wrong.
We didn’t talk about arrangements, or wishes, or any of the things we planned to, because – why spoil it?
It was the last perfect day. The last time we could pretend that everything was just as it used to be.
Time runs out.
The rest was the agony of watching a loved one slowly depart. Seeing them fight the pain and fear. You can only try to repay a little of the debt you owe for their love.
I don’t want to drag out my description of what happened or turn the experience into a trite FIRE lesson. It was just the inescapable reality for us in year two.
There is no lesson, except life cannot be avoided. You deal with it as best you can.
Perhaps Mrs TA and I were in a stronger position in that respect than we might have been a few years ago. But that’s all.
Life goes on
The most disorientating part of letting somebody go? The rest of life must still be attended to.
Initially you’re on auto-pilot, or in a zombie state. But grieving, like any other cleansing process, works to maintain your balance, patch you up, and keep you ploughing on.
So Mrs TA and I returned to building the life we want.
And one of the things I want, is to live without paying heed to the kind of grinding anxieties that sandpaper the soul.
At work, that was mainly the fear of a mid-life redundancy ending my little game of corporate snakes and ladders with a slide back down the board.
Now I’m out of that for good, I absolutely refuse to replace one insecurity with another – some new mental cheese-grater, such as fretting about my sustainable withdrawal rate (SWR), or inflation, or spending levels.
That last concern is something I want to talk more about though. Because a number of readers have mentioned that it’s troubling them.
Almost exclusively they’re FIRE-ees who find it difficult to spend.
My guess is that the FIRE population over-indexes towards natural saver types.
Whereas that was never my bag. I was a spendthrift in a former life. I had to learn how to stop chucking my money away. So perhaps undoing the purse strings isn’t so hard for me.
But I have some thoughts on how to spend, all the same. Our lean-ish FIRE still requires a good frugality game.
How to spend money in retirement
Three things help me to spend money so that it enhances our life.
Firstly, there’s mindset.
Secondly, there’s guide ropes.
Thirdly, there’s a story.
Mindset
By mindset I mean our resolution on what the money is for.
We saved so hard for so long – why?
Yes, for the security of financial independence but also for the promise of a better life in the future.
Well, that future is here and it’s every bit as good as I thought it would be. So it’s time to let go a little. If we don’t spend now, then when?
We’re both past 50. How long do we have left? 20 good years? A bit more? Less?
Mrs TA’s mum was only 25 years older than us.
Am I going to spend the next decade obsessing about sequence of returns risk?
Screw that.
We have to live life like we mean it. I’m past spending time worrying about shadows. If something awful slithers out, we’ll deal with it then.
Guide ropes
This free-spending talk doesn’t mean I advocate going loopy and blowing our carefully harvested FI nuts on a lambo or whatevs.
I only mean we should not feel guilt or anxiety about spending within our means.
I think it’s quite likely that the people who suffer most from spending aversion have already mapped out an extremely prudent income level. And that with back-up plans to spare.
An SWR already offers a historically safe drawdown level. If an unprecedented squadron of apocalyptic horsemen turn up like the opposition’s cavalry, then either there’s nothing you can do, or you take evasive action as the threat materialises.
On a personal level, there’s good evidence that you’ll probably spend less later in life. Forgoing spending in the go-go years at the start only means penalising yourself twice.
If you already have a good decumulation plan but your brain is badgering you for new guardrails, then create some. For example:
- Live freely on a near-bombproof 2.5% SWR.
- Or tot up how much you overspend every month. Put half of it into your back-up funds and spend the other half without regret.
- If extreme frugality is crimping your lifestyle then try calculating that cup of fancy coffee as 0.0005% of your net worth. Expose it as a rounding error.
You’ll know best how to distract your own meddlesome mind.
Story
This is the technique that works best for me, especially when it comes to big expenditures.
I simply create a narrative that justifies the outlay.
This might be as simple as the aphorism ‘buy cheap, buy twice’ when I’m choosing between an expensive item that will last, versus a cheapo substitute that’ll probably fall apart in a couple of years.
The line could be, “because we deserve it”, or “I’m spending this money on people I love”.
We’re renovating our home right now. In that case spending is okay because we’re going to be: “…living with it for the next 20 to 40 years”.
The extra money I pick up from hobby work is also fair game because: “it’s all a bonus, anyway”.
Perhaps inventing a story sounds like a cheap trick to your mind? But our society depends upon it. We can’t get anything done unless we collectively tell ourselves: “money is worth something”, or “we’re British, for God’s sake”, or “the time I spend on this Earth matters”.
If you’re an established yarn-spinner then please do let us know some of the ways you convince yourself to spend in the comments.
Be good to yourself
There’s one last strategy you can use to cope with financial constipation and that is to embrace it!
Money symbolises different things to each of us.
For some, its value clearly lies as much in the security that it represents as its purchasing power. And what’s wrong with that? Nothing, except that we’re constantly told that money is for spending, and that spending equals living.
Sure, most people act like that’s the case. But maybe that’s exactly what they’re doing: acting.
Or maybe you’re just not ‘most people’.
You could belong to a culturally underrepresented personality type that draws great comfort from keeping their financial powder dry – rather than flushing it down the drain.
Perhaps your happiness is to some degree dependent on underspending?
Here’s my direct equivalent. Most people apparently like parties. I don’t because I’m an introvert. Parties are an overwhelming sensory nightmare for me.
I used to think something was wrong with me until I found out that there are plenty of people like me. They just don’t get much airtime. Because nobody wants to watch a bunch of introverts having a good time. Even I don’t need to see that.
I suspect that hardcore frugality is the same.
It’s a behaviour that’s fairly obviously wired into many people from an early age.
If that’s you, maybe it’s time to stop fighting it. Not everyone lives to spend, the same as not everyone wants to be on TV.
So don’t beat yourself up.
Send yourself up by all means if your notorious tightwaddery is a matter of mirth among your nearest and dearest.
They’ll thank you for the legacy later.
Sure, you can’t take it with you. But some of us self-evidently need plenty of it hanging around until the matter is beyond doubt.
Anything left over can be handed to your successors, along with your compliments for having put up with you.
Take it steady,
The Accumulator
P.S. My FIRE budget for 2022-23 was £26,780 for two. Actual spend £25,939. I’m happy with that.
“If you’re an established yarn-spinner then please do let us know some of the ways you convince yourself to spend in the comments.”
As a Yorkshire man living in exile, my fathers words always ring here…
“Thes no pockets in shrouds”
Sorry to hear of your loss last year TA, all the best.
JimJim
Good reality check and a bit of positive coaching. I’m a bit of a natural tightwad (no problem with spending on things I value like holidays or time with family but the frippery like new sofas or fancy coffees all the time I’m just not interested in). It’s one of the things that is in my mind as I approach the RE point. I know I will have some capex on home and mentally need to adjust that this will eventually be recovered as I downsize/relocate rather than try to deal with it out of SWR.
Then mentally I have divided SWR into 3 : basics, lifestyle and treats. With the idea that treats can be cut back if there is a major hit. I still haven’t decided whether a certain amount of e.g. travel falls into lifestyle. I think it probably needs to if it is one of my main outgoings now compared to e.g. meals out and pub.
There is one thing that I haven’t factored in which is inheritance. My father died recently and obviously my mother won’t live forever. While I have never counted on anything because it might evaporate in care fees, odds are improved by one parent having dodged that outcome. That would be gravy at this point I think but perhaps it just secures the passing of a substantial SIPP pot to my beneficiaries.
Sorry for your loss, TA.
Excellent guide to the mentality of spending (or lack thereof). Your postscript made me chuckle a little as it was almost Micawber-ish. 🙂
Sorry if my post above came across as heartless re deaths of family members, my sympathies of course. I know I was disorientated for a while and still devoting a lot of energy toward supporting my mother in various ways.
But as money discussions are often taboo in families and my mother gets stressed at the thought of “dealing with that stuff” I think it is highly relevant in the context of this site to ensure we think about how to get informed on our elder relatives’ affairs without prying and golddigging. There can be significant amounts of cash that needs reinvesting in a sensible way with a realistic eye that some of it is for the longer term beyond their lifetime. The other thing is that with some of the “safe” cash deposit bonds out there now, older people can suddenly be tipped into tax returns for the first time in their lives.
Found this post really helpful as I struggle with spending and need a jolt every now and again to rebalance my mindset. Its sad that a bereavement can be that jolt, but realising how long we may have left can certainly be a game changer. Thank you for sharing this, and sorry to hear about your loss.
Sorry to hear about the tough times. Not easy. Everything is secondary to the health of loved ones.
As a fellow introvert, I hear you!! 🙂
I’m sorry to hear about your mom. You were so right I’m not obsessing about Safe withdrawal rates and other minutiae. I’ve been FIRE since 2012 and there are ups and downs for sure. The key is to do every day do something that has meaning, it is helpful to others, that you enjoy, that the world needs.
It’s hard to get out of the frugality mode. But we must try!
Sam
My biggest sympathies to you both. We went through something similar last year and understand all too well. One comfort was that our FIRE choice enabled us to spend more time with my partner’s Dad than would have been possible in a ‘normal’ life. Worth so much to know we made the most of the time we did have, as it sounds you both did too.
I’m coming up to five years FIRE’d this August, having pulled the trigger at 43. It was odd to switch from saver to spender for sure and sometimes I do still need a mental kick. What works for me is remembering this was exactly the point of all the hard work. We built our own home and spent when needed on materials that will last and bring us pleasure every single day. Now the only real thing we spend on is travel since we’re often away half the year now, exploring.
Is that considered spendy? I don’t know but that was always our plan. We now have so many, many memories and great experiences – well worth more than a few thousand more in the investment pots.
I think it largely comes down to levels of security. I know we could adapt if we had to and spend less. But life is short and I get far more pleasure from living it. For me, it’s all about remembering money is a man-made tool to use to improve life, not an end in itself.
You left the pence column out of your income and expenditure totals! Perhaps leaving out the units, tens and hundreds and listing only the thousands would help if you really want to be more relaxed about expenditure?
Why is it so easy to deny a child £20 for a night out yet happily provide a deposit for her house?
No, we can’t spend it either. Just unable to recalibrate and, if I weaken, there is always the what-ifs ( long term care, hip and knee replacements, outbreak of generalised war in Europe abd China Sea ). To compensate we are giving away 6 figure sums to children. Now they CAN spent.
As an IFA said to me, just figure that avoiding the iht that would otherwise have applied is effectively a 40% discount on all your purchases ( TI will love this 🙂 )
Very sorry to hear of the loss of Mrs A’s mum. I suspect that many of us on here are in that phase of life where these things become more commonplace but it doesn’t make accepting them any easier.
Thanks once again for your insights and pearls of wisdom regarding levering open the savings pot. As a natural saver pretty well since birth, it is certainly a problem that I recognise, and even when an opportunity does present itself to spend big I find myself questioning whether x or y is actually worth it, and the answer is invariably ‘no’! Having said that, the older I get the more I believe that there is something in the old adage that the best things in life are free. Having a nice partner, a nice social group and a relaxed lifestyle means far more than the latest gizmo or newer car.
I think that (probably) having a savings pot significantly larger than any of my peers also tends to put the brakes on large spends, as there is absolutely no desire to flash the cash – why would you? But this means that most social activities are walks, bike rides, or inexpensive meals out – certainly nothing to threaten any dents in our nest egg. A couple of half decent holidays every year is about the height of our spendy habits (and even that grates a bit to be honest!).
Thank you once again for an enjoyable and thought proving piece – very much appreciated.
@ grumblebum
Interesting, that stopped me for a moment – I think it’s because they are supposed to have a part-time job to earn spending money. If we make it too easy will they use inheritance/financial support sensibly?
Apparently teenagers working part-time in shops and cafes is lower than ever – which is a real shame and perhaps why graduates are less worldly/work ready than previous generation.
Sorry to hear about your loss, something like that does put you into a reflective mood. One of the things you mentioned is a 60 million dollar question: when you hit 55, how many “good” years have you left? The years when you can still travel on a whim, drink that extra bottle of wine, walk that ten mile coastline and, in the glorious words of Abba, find you’re still not too old for sex? (“When All Is Said And Done”, great track). It always irritated me on discussions of the SWR – am I supposed to be taking out 4% aged 98? Why can’t I take out 8% at 58 instead? I’ve found the only satisfying answer to being frugal is that I actually enjoy being frugal, feeling outrage at £3.49 for an Americano and going home to make one instead. It’s the small victories that count.
@BBBBobbins, not heartless at all, just a taboo subject, and one I’d love some insight into because I’ve been drowning as my parents age and yet refuse assistance. I feel so hurt that they don’t seem to care about the effect that leaving everything to the last minute has on us…. My dad was diagnosed with Parkinson’s when he retired. He had 12 good years but didn’t ever think about aged care. Last year he became bad and my mom had to organise everything. Now she’s not great but won’t relinquish any control.
I kept ending up in emergency because of weird neurological responses to the distress and stress of it all ….
I’m presently in the sunshine coast … two states away for a circuit breaker reset. My dad is hallucinating now and can’t work his phone. My mom is so emotionally angry it spills out in every conversation.
I am so grateful to myself for my financial base. It gives me comfort. If I get sick or break at least I will be safe …
Dark!! My sister said that bottom line we can’t walk their journey right now. It’s theirs. Our time/moment will come.
@TA, I’m sorry and hope all is well in time.
@TA, what happened with your roof situation?
And what’s your target budget for 23-24? I assume your portfolio’s still down
a bit so are you holding it down, or are you embracing the SWR propoganda?
How do I convince myself to spend? By reading blogs like The Monevator. Seriously. I’m 61; my Dad was diagnosed with cancer at 68 and died at 70. Your story about Mrs. TA’s Mom really hit home. Thank you for sharing it.
PS – Two other bloggers really good at driving home a similar point are Ben Carlson and Jack Young.
@TA so sorry and saddened to hear of
Mrs TA’s and your loss. Bereavement is the hardest thing. We lost a very close relative on Mrs TlI’s side of the family earlier this year, and it brings home that health and family are above wealth and everything else. It also puts the daily trivia of work and of enforced routines into their proper place. No one looks back and wishes that they’d spent a few extra hours in the office.
Sorry to hear of your loss. The last perfect day is a memory to treasure.
YOMANK I can’t unimagine that 😉
I enjoyed your comment:
“Send yourself up by all means if your notorious tightwaddery is a matter of mirth among your nearest and dearest.
“They’ll thank you for the legacy later anyway.”
It reminds me of one I like:
“Tightwads may be hard to live with, but they make great ancestors!”
I’m curious about all the responses here around leaving money as an inheritance – do you ever ask them what they want?
Whenever I talk money with my parents, I’m always encouraging them to spend and enjoy. It’s not just because I’m FI already either my sister does the same with them and she is definitely not FI.
Both of us far prefer that they enjoy it now, they worked so hard for it after all. We’ve enjoyed many trips away together, meals and days out with great memories – all worth far more than a bit more in the bank when the inevitable happens at some point.
I just think sometimes it’s easier to say ‘we’re saving it for the kids’ when you don’t really know what else you’d do with it anyway. A way to avoid dealing with that question?
Like I said, no judgement, it’s all personal choice I’m just curious how many people actually ask their kids what they would prefer??
@TA my sincere condolences.
My 2 two year anniversary was in April, and most of my second year has been similar to yours.
Father with Dementia falls breaks femur, hospital for months, home now but mobility, and dignity, has gone and dementia exacerbated.
Mother in law has a dreaded diagnosis, significant operation was done quickly (thank you NHS), just ending 7 months of debilitating treatment and about to start 5 months of a different debilitating treatment.
Mind now fully focused on the here and now.
Mrs Fi-FF has made the jump and resigned from her teaching job, she finishes in July.
We haven’t got everything planned out yet, but we will manage.
Fortunately a couple of Ex colleagues have put separate interesting opportunities my way, very much part time and ad hoc, but perfect to help bridge a gap.
Importantly, for the first time in our adult lives we will have control over how we spend our time, which is priceless.
Best Wishes.
Thank you all for the condolences and messages of support. It’s moving to hear how many other people have experienced something similar. It should be obvious I suppose, but grief always feels very singular and isolating. We Brits are always apologising for relaying our misfortune to others but in truth it’s better to share, if only to realise that other people know how you feel.
@ JimJim – Wise words from your dad. Love it.
@BBBobbins – your comment didn’t come across as heartless at all. I do think Monevator comment threads should be a safe space to share any financial experience. You’re spot on that this stuff is verboten in many families.
@ Michelle – wonderful to hear that you’ve struck a good balance and are making the most of this phase of your life. I’m still struggling with that, I think. Also, your point about inheritances raises a really good question that ventures into extremely difficult territory for many families, I’d guess. It’s certainly not a conversation that Mrs TA and I have experienced.
@ The Bonce – “this means that most social activities are walks, bike rides, or inexpensive meals out – certainly nothing to threaten any dents in our nest egg. A couple of half decent holidays every year is about the height of our spendy habits” – to me this is the good life!
Mrs TA injured herself shortly after I FIRE’ed and we hadn’t been able to go out cycling since. Bizarrely, the breakthrough came during our visit to see TI in London. He put Mrs TA onto a pain management technique that gave her the confidence to get back in the saddle. A couple of days ago we pootled round a beautiful route out in the countryside and rewarded ourselves with bacon butties and an outrageous cake at a farm shop. God it was good. And the cake gave me heart arrhythmia – always a good sign 😉 Watch out for TI’s blog launching his new healing guru service!
@ Boltt – excellent point!
@ JimG – Heh, heh – vindication is everything! Also, big Abba fan over here – but I had no idea that was what that song was about. I shall listen to it with renewed interest.
@ London a long time ago – that is a very tough situation and must grind you down. I’m glad you’re able to get a much needed break occasionally.
@ Meany – so far the roof is holding up despite dire predictions. I’ve actually had 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th opinions on it since. I’ve heard everything from “replace it now” to “it’s in reasonably good nick”. I’ve come to realise that nobody’s got a clue.
Budget for 2023-24 should be last year’s budget plus inflation, so £26,780 x 1.1 = £29,460.
I’ll try to keep it to plus 3% though as that’s what allowed for by my bridging cash. That’s £27,580.
Portfolio is down but I can’t touch it because it’s in SIPPs. I can only access bridging cash until we hit age 55. I would be worried if I was purely relying on that because I assumed 3% inflation per year. Happily a bit of hobby work takes the pressure off and turns out to be good for my brain.
@ AZ Joe – “Tightwads may be hard to live with, but they make great ancestors!” Haha, that’s wonderfully put. Perhaps worth putting in a frame on the wall for anyone who’s really chafing at their inability to spend.
@ FI-Firefighter – that is an incredibly hard hand you’ve been dealt. Being in control of our time made an enormous difference to how much help we could offer, which in turn minimises regret when the situation ends – as it inevitably must. There are periods in our lives which define who we are as people, and it sounds like you’re living through one of those right now and rising to the challenge. I wish you all the best.
Sorry for your loss TA, and in particular Mrs TA.
This post further reinforces my image of TI & TA as the investment equivalent of Lance and Andy of the Detectorists. Nerdy, introverted, passionate hobbyists, TA’s switched on (I resisted the word “normal”) other half and now TA has recently lost his mother in law (RIP Diana Rigg). And not forgetting MSW as Linda Lusardi. I’m convinced your hiding a TR7 in an underground lock-up, TI.
I write this as a severe introvert myself, and with the greatest of respect.
A small point about the headline – Second anniversary, rather than second year anniversary – the “year” part is redundant, but it’s something I increasingly notice being used.
Well, with fiscal drag on IHT threshold, inflation, impending death (for everyone at some point) and children finding themselves in the reversed educational role of having to grasp the nettle of teaching family finances to their mentally decrepit aged parents, I did some rooting around regarding an AIM IHT portfolio. I think family planning used to be something done by would-be parents. Now it has to be attempted by the children. AIM IHT portfolios are for those careful lifetime savers watching the sunset who have had a little accident by not taking precautions through gifting and leaving their bun in the oven too long. (And lots of other mixed analogies, depending on personal circumstances.)
It would appear that the recent tech enabled competition in the investments market resulting in the shrinking of platform/broker/service/tea-making/etc fees for normal ISAs and SIPPS and just general all round anything on the stock market has not yet reached this area of investment. An area of investment that appears to carry some of the highest risk with the lowest returns in the UK.
Typical fees appear to be 1% initial fee (!) plus 1.5% AMC. I can only guess there is a significant percentage of rich clients who have either lost their marbles or who know they are going to lose them. The whole market would be obliterated in an instance if the government were to actually reduce IHT or increase the threshold with any significance. Never seen any internet finance blog or the like go into any detail on making a DIY BPR-qualifying AIM portfolio, the finer points involved, or even much in the way of fee comparisons between hands-off portfolio providers. Where is the AIM tracking ETF? I was wondering if I have missed any Monevator articles on this.
Responding to a couple of posts on here and rambling on a bit
@Michelle. I think the tricky thing with inheritance is the uncertain bit re lifespan and later life needs. I’m sure plenty of older people draw significant mental comfort from the pile of savings beyond pension income and are reluctant to proactively let go of it. Equally they aren’t going to change personality type/lifestyle and suddenly start spending in new areas.
My parents greatly reduced their spend on e.g. holidays as my dad’s mobility decreased. And evening outings tend to dry up among their social group by late 70s.
My mum does now want to take those holidays etc but she needs someone to go with, which means largely family who in turn have their own priorities and limitations so inevitably they will be fewer than her financial capacity to “enjoy”.
Thinking about my own situation. I haven’t hit RE yet but I do wonder when the living post FIRE experience will have informed me enough to take proactive measures with my pot. To some extent what is tied up in a SIPP is largely taken care of with a significant bonus for beneficiaries if I croak pre 75. I do wonder about the exact sequencing with the rest in ISA, GIA and cash if it’s still there in my 70s. Guess I can make the call then whether to deflate a bit of that by annual ISA contributions to beneficiaries etc (or whatever vehicles then exist) and hope to live 7+ years further.
Really good thought provoking article but sorry about your loss, it’s very difficult as I know myself. I agree with a lot of your sentiments and your writing style is brilliant – so descriptive and friendly. You can definitely tell you’re an accomplished writer.
It was interesting, as well as a bit brave to even say you are introverted I think. I’m an introvert like you but never talked much about it, it’s sort of seen as an illness, I think, although I don’t agree. I don’t know you but think I have more severe introversion. I couldn’t work with other people in office environments, for example, like I believe you did, and I’m definitely not a team player – I like my own company, like solitary jobs etc. I can’t really talk to people I don’t know unless they say something to me first. Socially awkward they call it. So I was never the most popular – usually the least (you know always last picked at school for anything). I don’t see it as a handicap like most in the world do, although it has never helped me at interviews at all, which was why, majority of my working life, I was self employed. I have a low tolerance for people, some people especially, I think. I can’t deal with loud extrovert types for very long, especially the show off, bragging types (you know those that are always the best/know the best/got the latest/been there done that better than anyone etc.) I, like you, can’t abide parties/celebrations either and can’t do enforced jollity. (Christmas/New Year time drives me up the wall!) As you say you are certainly not alone as an introverted being – there are many of us – you just don’t hear that much from us.
There has been a lot of death and illness in my family – in fact I don’t have any family left apart from a couple of them, who I was never close to and never see at all anyway. Feel a bit on my own in the world now although yes, I do have a partner (although as an introvert,she chose me more than I chose her as she had to do most of the talking) and she has her mum left but she is ill (her father died at 63 due to brain tumour). My father died in 2020 due to catching covid in hospital (when he got taken in with a fall but was recovering) – my mum died 6 months earlier after hospital misdiagnosed and turned out to be cancer which had spread. I had to be carer to them both for quite a number of years before this. I don’t have any siblings. I also had two friends die in their early 50’s not so long ago of heart attack/cancer. Myself, I started with ill health in my 40’s and have a few lifelong health conditions which deteriorated to the point where I now can’t work and I’m not in my mid 50’s yet so my financial situation changed overnight as I would have been working longer and had more in my pot but now in enforced decumulation – which is always worse when it is unexpected. I always said I only have one type of luck – bad! I no longer have any of the few friends I had, due to deaths – and my own health conditions as when you can’t drink alcohol any more and difficult to eat out if I don’t know what is on the menu and if I will be able to go when the time comes, people stop contacting you but I can see why they do so don’t blame them. I don’t tend to go out evenings now at all. By all this I am not asking for the violins to come out but just to reiterate that time is short and we all tend to think it won’t happen to us and it can do as I know from my own experience.
Whilst I have always been a saver (although not an investor really until fairly late) and frugal and tend not to splash out on expensive items and so would find the change in mindset difficult, I think I do now need to think about spending more on stuff I enjoy – like some travel whilst I can still do some at least. I don’t want to be overly pessimistic but most people think they are going to go on forever and routinely talk about living into their 90’s but this is fairly rare to be honest. Most people have some conditions by their 60’s and start slowing down and deteriorate more by 70’s and most don’t last past 70’s or 80’s at most. You are exceptionally lucky if you get into your 90’s and even more extraordinarily lucky if you don’t have much ill health at that point. If you do you’ll have many people commenting on how you have done it/must be doing something right – it’s that sherry every night etc!
That is why I am not going to worry about whether I will have enough financially to last me out. I’ll live to my means – I have to. I have now started to invest, thanks mainly to Monevator, but only since 2021 but had built up savings in cash ISA’s and savings accounts and some small DC personal pensions before that. I agree with global passive index investing – I don’t have the time, interest or energy for anything else and like to keep it simple anyway but I don’t do everything exactly by the book in terms of asset allocation . For instance I know I should really hold a certain percentage of bonds based on that I now have to use my savings to live off and stick to that but I don’t. I have some. I still have too much held as cash and some of my funds aren’t all world but developed world, some exclude the UK but I don’t bother rebalancing these back to the exact percentage by adding extra UK funds or emerging markets for example, I just think they are near enough. I don’t think that for all the effort (and additional dealing charges) that it would make that much difference at the end of the day to my life in the big scheme of things. I did read somewhere that if you had not been invested in emerging markets at all and just in developed world funds over past years you would actually be better off anyway but who knows if that is correct, or if it is, that it will continue that way? All just guesswork. Similarly I don’t hold a small amount of gold and don’t think it’s worth the bother for me – I have enough problems already than to worry about such things (or my SWR either like you). Even with all this I still find it difficult to switch from frugal habits to thinking I can spend more as realistically the chances of a long life for me seem very remote anyway. (A long day out these days seems to be just another hospital visit – will have to start taking a flask of tea and sandwiches and really enjoy the day fully!)
So really we need to carefully consider how much “useful” time we really have left to enjoy our fruits before we are too old / decrepid / ill to be able to really enjoy it – I know for a fact many of my family did not do this, did not fully reap the rewards of their labour and left much of it behind on their death.
Anyway I’d better stop waffling now and go back to my introverted ways and read a boring book or something, but seriously, thanks for all the hard work put into this great blog by you, TI and all the others.
>> And one of the things I want, is to live without paying heed to the kind of grinding anxieties that sandpaper the soul. <<
Dang that hits hard! Very elegantly worded.
@ AS – thank you and for your thoughtful comment. I have not experienced anything like the level of tragedy in my life that you have, but your point about the finitude of good years hits home. It’s something I’ve been thinking about a lot and has prompted me to reach out to some old friends that I haven’t seen in many, many years. The one thing I don’t want to regret is being too afraid to try.
Re: being an introvert. Have you read Quiet by Susan Cain? It’s a superb book that really helped me to understand and be comfortable with my own introversion. I can cover it up to some extent but then appear inconsistent / quite abrupt sometimes when I need to withdraw to recharge my batteries.
@ D 🙂
@TA @AS another shout out for that book. For me, reading that was as life changing as discovering this site! The confirmation that, no there isn’t anything *wrong* with me, that’s just who I am. I am a deep introvert, but not shy. There’s a key difference. A perfect day for me would be walking on my own or in a very small group, followed by a night reading or in a quiet corner of a pub (sometimes at the same time).
Cain’s book is a wonderful read, with some fantastic learnings. I’m proud to be an introvert. I think especially wfh and the pandemic has switched the value to allow us introverts the space to get noticed, not that i crave attention! It must be so exhausting being an extrovert!
The book also reinforced my belief that introverts make better investors – reading the book Snowball on Warren Buffett recently, some of his personality traits are very similar to my own (shame it ends there!), namely to hating parties and large social events, small talk, and trying to avoid confrontation, in addition to preferred written communication rather than verbal, and must be the most successful introvert ever!
Thank you for sharing your story, wishing you all the best.
Sorry to read about the Mrs Mum :(.
You reeled me in like a pro, when reading the rest of the article, I’m wondering do we finally get to see lean fire numbers will they be “real” and not 45k+ figure s, ah no 🙁
and then with the p.s. confirms 🙂 like you’ve mentioned before you’ve left enough clues and that confirms and fills in the blanks for us, I’d just like to say thankyou for releasing it as for many whom are not mega earners etc it helps us aspire to do the same on or around that figure. Well done on having a target and being close to it, especially with the last year or sofinancial shenanigans bonds/shares/inflation.
Bravo (fellow introvert)
Dear TA, sorry for what happened to your family. Thank you for this article. I read it yesterday and still thinking about some of the key-points. And about the comments of the readers: thank you all, really important to read your considerations on life, quality of life, FI, parents getting older… I read you, as some of you know, from the “Land of Venice” (and frankly speaking I hope to be the first Monevator maven in this italian area…waiting for confirmation from TI & TA ) and, despite the fact of living in another country with a different culture, I always feel to be among “friends”. I’m in the situation to start thinking about FI, but still not able to realize the real meaning of it…I have to work on it some more and continue to read your articles and comments, obviously. A big “Ciao!” to you all! SirRik
So sorry to hear of your and Mrs TA’s loss, my condolences.
I was a saver when I was young, became a spender in my 20s and 30s before reverting to a saver again in my 40s. I think I might struggle to spend when I retire because the person I was in my 20s/30s seems unrecognisable to me – I was obviously rebelling against the family norm! I think I will need to keep reminding myself to enjoy the time and money!
As others have mentioned, thanks for sharing your budget and spends for 2022/23 as they are numbers I can identify with!
@ JDW – Yes, introverted not shy is how I categorise myself too. I’ve done some public speaking for example. I can stand up in a room and give speeches and make pitches. But in reality, a quiet evening with a small group of friends or Mrs TA is my idea of a good time.
@ SirRik – A big “Ciao” to you too. So nice to hear from you as always! How strong is the FI / FIRE movement in Italy?
@ Miner2049er and Weenie – talking about my numbers is something I’m shy about. Not because I find them troubling to talk about for any particular reason but because I find it difficult to believe anyone would be interested. I know it’s a staple of FIRE blogging so people obviously are interested, indeed I’m interested in other people’s spending. But still, I can’t quite shake my instinctive reaction that no-one would give two hoots!
Still, TI has suggested I wrote a more detailed FI budget post, so I guess I will have a go and see what happens.
@TA – Thank you for that and for reference to the book. I hadn’t heard of it but I will read it.
Yes been through the mill a bit in my life and it takes its toll on you and makes you less confident, more stressed/anxious etc. and I think probably makes an introverted person more so. That’s why when some get apparently stressed out over small details with investments – like fretting about trying to get everything pinned down to the “N th” degree or getting costs down by another 0.05% or whatever, there can often be bigger things to worry about – such as your health (and the poor state of NHS) or for younger people maybe climate change/housing/state the country is in generally, as without these improving, any individual money you have may not help much or only in a limited way.
I used to try to cover up my introversion as well but not anymore – more when I was younger and used to go out more for a drink with some “friends” (of sorts – obviously not my types really) I had back then – in an attempt to “fit in” with many of the “one of the lads” very extrovert types by sort of putting on an act/pretending but I still never did fit in and was caught out all the time. I think people see me as stand offish/cold – even odd/weird maybe, but you can’t do a lot about it if that’s how you’re made so I no longer really worry about it.
It was humorous when you said “nobody wants to watch a bunch of introverts having a good time” as it’s right we don’t really like the word “fun” – see it as a trivial term – we’re just not into too much jollity of any kind really. Usually when I go on holiday it’s for a quiet time (Benidorm’s my worst nightmare) and not large crowds, festivals or dreaded themeparks. Years ago I even went to Orlando, Florida for two weeks but didn’t go to a single theme park.
The only thing that does bother me is that it may spoil things for my partner a bit as she is not an introvert or majorly extrovert either but she is outgoing and seen as such, so she gets invited to things with her friends/partners in a group and even on holiday or sometimes even family events, which I often decline as not my scene/don’t feel that I fit in, and then she feels she is missing out, although she does go out with some of her friends on her own.
You can’t put up a pretense for long about something you clearly are not – you’ll soon be found out which is why, for example, when people years ago said to me to do that in interviews in order to get some job that was not right for me, I would always say – Why? They will sooner, rather than later, find out I am not a team player, find it difficult and absolutely hate working in groups and am introverted and don’t fit in, so why lie and be found out as a fraud? Apart from that I’d be seriously not happy with it anyway. From a position of contentedness with any job it would probably be a long distance lorry driver, not maybe financially, just that it would just be me on the road, doing my own thing mainly and I wouldn’t have to interact with that many people.
Lately with autism coming more to the fore than it used to be, I wondered if I had any traits but reading about it, I didn’t have any educational or developmental problems that many have and tended to be above average at my schools in most subjects – however some traits I do such as with social interaction but in my day autism was not even heard of, never mind about being assessed for it. So could be on the lower end of the scale – who knows? Too late in the day for me to worry about that now. Even the daughter of my partner’s sister, who is 9 now, can’t get appropriate treatment/schooling for her severe autism – she can’t go to school now and my partner’s sister has to school her at home at the moment (she used to be a teacher).
@JDW – thanks for your kind words.
I agree with you that it must be so exhausting to be an extrovert all the time, to be loud and talk to everybody you see/meet like some in my neighbourhood do (whilst I often try to sneak out the house when nobody is about!)
I am similar too in that I enjoy solitary things on my own like reading, gardening, bit of walking/cycling, browsing the internet (reading fantastic sites like this one). I do like doing stuff with my partner sometimes but even then her small talk often about really trivial things, like her latest sparkly top, I find tedious and draining, as I am more of a deep thinker about things so I need time out from her as well – but she is about the only one these days I enjoy doing stuff with. My nightmare holiday would be a cruise – stuck on board a ship for days on end, trapped with loads of people until you get to the next port and them all bragging about how many they’ve done – which is just as well as they’re always expensive and I’m far too frugal anyhow for such extravagance!
Anyway all the best to you as well. I better shut up now and go back to my quiet cupboard as I think I’m well off topic discussing personality traits/foibles but just thought it was interesting that @TA had mentioned it.
Sometimes life just rears up and smacks us between the eyes with a dose of reality. Thanks for turning that experience into a valuable article for the rest of us.
The process of aging varies dramatically with individual. Our sole surviving parent is my mother. A tough as old nails east-ender who went through WW2 and experienced having her home demolished in the Blitz. She firmly intends to die with her boots on, and has only recently accepted regular carer visits to help her with day-to-day living. Yes, increasingly frail, but still sharp and not someone you want to mess with. There is no significant estate, my parents rented all their lives, and as far as we can tell she has already gifted heirlooms, items of historical interest and anything she thinks her family and friends might care about. Like many of her generation, there is money for the funeral, apart from that nothing. She just plows on uncomplaining. It may come to a crisis, but I expect it to be met with her usual good sense. I do not (yet) fear for her.
In contrast, my partners parents both went through significant periods of increasing ill-health before their death. One dementia, the other repeated strokes. A significant portion of their estate went on care, and disposal of the residual was well planned and clear in its intent.
Our situation is a little more complicated as we have an Asperger’s son who is dependent. He lives independently, but has never worked and is unlikely to. Part of our planning is to make sure there is enough to be left in trust to support him for the rest of his life. That makes us reluctant to open the purse too wide.
Both close to 70, our backpacking years are behind us. We could afford to travel in some luxury, but increasingly find the hassle not worth it. We have a young grandchild in California, and visiting that family once a year is enough long-haul travel for us. Even long weekends to archaeological sites, museums, gardens etc has not really recovered from lockdown. We just got out of the habit.
We try and live off pensions (fortunately, I am old enough to have a couple of good DB pensions), reserving our investments for health crises, future care needs, and looking after our son. We run through a fair bit of money on basic living, given that we are effectively running two households. Our ‘story’, and where we do spend reasonably freely, are our hobbies/interests.
My partner is a keen gardener (and I mean keen – more than an acre under cultivation, plus a further 7 acres of what is effectively a nature reserve). That consumes both a lot of materials and bought in labour from the local youth for the heavier jobs. That, coupled with deep involvement with both local and national conservation organisations keeps her fully occupied (apart from side interests in ancient textiles, natural dyes and printing, and whatever has most recently grabbed her attention).
My vice(?) is astronomy, particularly astrophotography. I have built and equipped my own observatory, and I am part of a syndicate that operates three telescopes in Southern Spain, where the skies are clearer. Astrophotography has the same sort of spending profile as terrestrial photography, but on steroids. I could drop £50k tomorrow on upgrading my kit (and people do!), but I am puritan enough to think that there is no point in doing that when I have not yet exhausted the capabilities of what I already have. Astrophotography also consumes a lot of time. So with that and continuing to do consultancy work on a declining basis, I also find my time fully occupied.
All of this is a long-winded way of saying that we try and live off current pension income, but spend fairly freely on our passions. A big chunk of our putative estate is earmarked for our Asperger’s son, and we want to keep a reserve for the risk of poor health in the future. We are, as close as we can tell, happy.
So for both of us, it is our story that gives us permission to spend freely up to the point where our puritanism/fear of the future kicks in. Relatives and friends look on uncomprehendingly at where we choose to spend because we have slightly unusual interests. It has always been like that, from our first home where we judged that a good quality DSLR camera and lenses was of much more value to us than a bed (we did have a mattress on the floor!). My family still tells the story of how I gave my partner a full size excavator with an operator for the day so she could re-landscape part of the garden, as if it was something weird and some nice jewellery would have been more appropriate.
For us FI was the goal, and we choose the level of spending that fits our interests, lifestyle, and the level of financial security we want. An active choice, not keeping up with the Jones, hedonic creep, or doing what people expect of us (If one more person tells me I would enjoy a Caribbean cruise, ‘cos that’s what people my age with a bit of spare money do, I will do something drastic!).
As @TA, @Monevator and many other people here have drummed into us – FI is a different number for everyone, but what FI gives you is options. How you exercise those options is down to you.
I’m marking my recently acquired status of Maven… this morning…to acknowledge that my current pretty much retired spend is virtually identical to @TAs postscript. Not by design though..or target… but created by a new part time job.. couple of days each week . And looking forward to future contributions on managing dissipation phase in a simple form as is doable.
Dear TA, about your question: actually in Italy there are some financial forums where one can read interesting opinions about FI(RE) concepts, but usually these opinions are part of other main subjects. For example there’s an interesting forum fully dedicated to Vanguard LifeStrategy (the version sold in Italy and Germany, obviously, not the UK one). About blogs and websites…I would say that the situation is disappointing: nothing, as far as I know, at the level of US and UK blogs and websites. But I see that things are [slowly] changing and the financial culture, in general, is improving. And this last point is really important, because Italians are absolutely good savers and with an incredible amount of money in savings! And they (we, sorry) tend to keep money…cash, or in public bonds. So…let’s see how things will go in the future. At least now you know the reason why there is a “Monevator maven” in the Land of Venice: I want to learn more and spend time with some…british friends! 🙂 😉
I just want to say thanks for such a brilliant article and set of comments
I’ve been FI for about four years now and have recently spent large on some house stuff (garden and outdoors) as these are my passions and hobbies.
The final costs, whilst affordable, made me feel sick. But this article is so timely .. it’s funny how your blog does that! .. and thanks to your ideas and the comments I’m able to reframe and enjoy.
Many thanks for your amazing work and wit!
@ Old Eyes – “We are, as close as we can tell, happy.” This is a beautiful line. And moving because I don’t think anyone can wish for more. Your description of how you have both wrestled with life, and learned to live it to the full, is inspiring. Love the tale of the digger and your cold fury at the “people who cruise” pigeon-holing.
@ SirRik – That’s very interesting. Traditionally Brits are poor savers but the stock market has long been a prominent part of public life. I’ve recently discovered that the interest in investing is much less developed in many countries in Europe. A German friend was telling me recently about what a struggle it is to convince her family to invest.
@ Hyperhypo – I really do think that a bit of part-time work is key to settling into a happy retirement – at least for a while, and especially if the retirement is uncommonly early.
@ Djbond – thank you so much! It’s a pleasure. And I agree this has been a wonderful comments thread.
Sorry to hear about your loss – I appreciate it will not help in any way but my thoughts are with you and Mrs TA. I had a similar experience in my early 20s with my mum and then in my early 40s with my dad. I wish I had something helpful to say, but all I learned was that life can be tough sometimes. One thing that genuinely helped me when my dad passed (due to feeling trapped in a soulless job) was discovering this blog, so thanks again!
I’m a bit late to comment (can’t login until weekend) but sorry for your loss Mr and Mrs TA.
My dad died unexpectedly at 58 when I was just 19 but my mum is still here at 85 – although I am now having to do a lot of caring as she has lost much of her sight. So I’ve experienced both”options” – neither count as much”fun”.
But as the cliche says – the only certainty is death and taxes and you can’t avoid either of them.
As another confirmed extreme introvert, my idea of a fun bank holiday is 3 days with a book and maybe a bit of garden pottering.
I’ve read the Quiet book but the book I found most helpful and read much earlier is called “Being an Introvert in an Extrovert World” by Marti Olsen Laney (2002). That was the book that convinced me to embrace being introverted and stop trying to “fit in” to social expectations (e.g. what exciting thing did you do over the bank holiday?)
@Sarah – “my idea of a fun bank holiday is 3 days with a book and maybe a bit of garden pottering.”
I’m apparently classed as an ‘ambivert’, yet this is what I’ve got planned and I’ve been looking forward to it all week! Perhaps I’m more introvert than I thought I was.
@Weenie – Ha, yes – Busy week in work so very much looking forward to 3 lazy days. I’ve always thought that the definition of being an “adult” is when you realise that you should do what really makes you happy and not what others tell you should make you happy. By that definition I was 35 when I became an adult 😉 But the process began when I went to university. It’s not always easy though.
Reading the comments and seeing a couple of references to autism/Aspergers has made me wonder about whether there is a correlation between being in the FIRE community and being on the autistic spectrum. FIRE demands a willingness/ability to go against the flow of society and it puts people into a spending pattern that is easier for those who are willing to forgo excess (and along the way probably live quiet lives). It also requires a methodical and detailed approach to building assets, which can easily be/become a special interest.
I’m not saying every FIRE person is on the autistic spectrum as clearly that’s far from the case, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there is a strong correlation. It would be really interesting to do some research.
@ Sarah – I have the Laney book on my Audible wishlist but haven’t gotten around to it. Thank you for the nudge!
Also, I didn’t feel like an adult until well north of 35, either.
@All, great comments, really enjoying reading them.
I also tend towards the introvert and mirror many of the feelings of the commentators above.
My wife is a teacher and has spotted / diagnosed traits within me over the years that I was not aware off, including Dyslexia which was confirmed at age 51.
Her latest assessment of me is that it is likely I have Misophonia – for me it’s ticking clocks, dog barking and ignorant people talking during a presentations etc
I was discussing this whole conversation with my wife this morning, repeating some of the quotable comments etc – Because nobody wants to watch a bunch of introverts having a good time, 🙂
I said to her that its interesting so many who follow Monevator are similar to me, that I felt I had found my people.
Quick as a flash she said – ‘but you will never get to meet them, as you will all be at home reading books!’ – it really made me chuckle, so wanted to share.
Hee hee. Your wife is right! But the internet was invented for introverts.
@TA – Very sorry to hear about yours and Mrs TA’s loss, but thanks for sharing, as it made me reflect. Thanks for writing this excellent post – I got a lot out of it, along with reading other people’s excellent comments, like the ones written by @AS.
I too am a deep introvert, and have finally been able to live my ideal ‘quiet’ life, in this delicious FIRE chapter of my life, since I quit working 18 months ago.
My previous career was constantly being around loads of people all the time, which I now realize in hindsight, also led to the burnout and exhaustion, (along with working 60-70 hours/week for 17 years non-stop). This led to asking a financial advisor when I can stop working / retire. And thus both myself & my husband quit working immediately, when he said I could stop straight away!
Thanks very much for sharing your spending figures in the P.S. section, during your 2nd year of FIRE – as they are truly very interesting to the rest of us who read this blog.
Interestingly, mine were nearly the same! In my first year of FIRE, total spend of both myself + husband, came out to be exactly £25k, which I categorized as:
£15k essential survival spending + £5k comfort spending + £5k discretionary travel & unexpected expenses spending.
(The financial advisor seemed to think we could spend more & still be ok, due to not having any legacy requirements, as our joint savings & investing pots totals came out to be £1.5 million in the grand total at the start of FIRE – but I felt more comfortable sticking to the lower £25k figure as above).
Unlike you and all the very clever people who write comments, despite reading Monevator for the last 18 months, I lack the confidence in my numeracy and financial knowledge skills, to tackle decumulation by myself.
My husband and I agreed that we just felt better about letting a financial advisor figure out SWR etc for us, as that is what they do as their day job, despite this costing a fair whack of money in their fees.
Am I the only person who loves reading Monevator, but doesn’t know enough about investing & lacks confidence etc, and so is delegating decumulation to a financial advisor, from age 43 onwards?
I would love to hear anyone’s comments on this!
@TA – as per a previous comment you wrote, YES – I would be very interested in any figures you are willing to share about spending / pot sizes, etc.
The reason for this, is apart from commentators on Monevator, I don’t know anyone else in my day-to-day life who has FIRE’d … so it would be good context to compare what the financial advisor tells me, to what you and @TI write in this blog (as I feel like you both know as much, if not more, than the financial advisor does!)
@TA and @TI – Thank you again for ALL your excellent articles on Monevator, and for all the fantastic links to external articles in your ‘weekend reading’ emails. I can’t even begin to tell you how much I have learnt from the above, over the last 18 months – and am much happier for it.
I have only recently read this and would like to say how sorry I am for your loss. I lost my mother when she was 67 and can appreciate what a blow this must have been.
I have found that deaths of friends and relatives do focus the mind onto enjoying the fleeting lives we have while we still can.
Very sorry to hear of your recent bereavement, both of you.
We spend when it is environmentally necessary or desirable. So, no holidays, no flying and recycled/used/2nd hand everything where possible. Rural living, simply suits us. We volunteer and DIY. Proud to be dull!
Hey TA,
I am very sorry to hear about your loss during your second year of FIRE.
On the subject of people worrying about money running out in essence, I can imagine this will affect many people especially those who run an FI income figure that’s already close to the bone with no buffer or a relatively high SWR with a long time horizon. It’s one of the reasons I have pushed back my FIRE age from a very lean FIRE at 35 in the early days to a much bigger full FIRE at 50 with pensions secured that come in at 68+ as a safety net. The ability to perhaps earn some money part time and an inheritance are also practical possibilities in the worse case scenarios. It will be interesting to see how I do in such a a situation but hopefully, I will be ok.
I am focussing on the next 14 years before I get to FIRE as I am all go aware that nothing is guaranteed and I won’t be rushing to my FIRE date as it’s wishing 14 years of my life away, I am all too aware of that from my own experience with a similar situation.
Wish you all the best for year 3!
TFJ
Hey, thank you TFJ. It sounds like you’ve spent a lot of time thinking through your plan and adopting the FIRE template to your particular situation. You make a great point about ‘wishing your life away’. It’s incredibly important not to think of FIRE as a panacea and the interim steps as a waste. That’s a harmful mindset and FIRE takes too long for it to make sense.
Besides, my FIRE journey initiated a rapid period of change in my life as it helped me think through what I really wanted. That was invaluable to me as I transformed from disgruntled consumerist to someone who has ‘enough’.